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Author | Topic: The God That Paul Marketed Over Time. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I contend that Paul explains that doing will never get you closer to Heaven. Do you have any Scripture references where Paul says something along those lines explicitly? Like, rather than talking about the importance of faith, he talks about how unimportant it is to do things? Or how they can't help you? It seems like every time I get into the Faith vs Works debate, the only argument for how worthless works are is arguments about how important faith is.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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CatSci writes: Out of curiosity, do you think that James was Jesus' brother? LOL I'm not even sure that James was James. Let's be honest. We really have almost no clue who wrote any of the material included in either the Old or New Testament.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I don't think I've ever said that works are a justification. The doctrine was that "by grace are ye saved through faith" - i.e. faith is the justification. BUT, as I keep trying to tell you, real faith is manifested by works. Works are the only outward sign of real faith. If you don't do the works, you ain't got the faith, no matter what you profess. The only real value of the faith is the works that it produces.
Paul bought up faith credited as righteousness and that works appear to be an obligation rather than a justification.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: The only real value of the faith is the works that it produces. This has been a debate for centuries. The Council of Trent on Justification (Canon 12) states: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy [grace], which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence [faith] alone that justifies us, let him be anathema [cursed]. Islam concurs. To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward (Surah 5:9) Paul has different ideas.
Eph 2:1-10 writes:
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. In the Bible, when Paul speaks of works, he often refers to the things produced by someone’s effort or life. There is a connection with the flesh. The flesh works hard to achieve results, going its own way, doing what it wants -- always producing fleshly results stemming from self-fulfillment. We delude ourselves into believing that our human accomplishments equal God’s standard for holiness. The argument here is whether some guy off the street with no desire to know Christ or change his ways can attain salvation merely by rolling up his sleeves and feeding people. Lets take a hypothetical guy. He could care less about religion. He likes to drink---maybe a bit too much. He does have a conscience, however...and feels uneasy when he sees people hungrier and worse off than he is. So he rolls up his sleeves. He works to help others. He is still stubborn concerning organized religion...and rightly so. He professes atheism. His only guidance comes from his own inner conscience. Anyone who approaches him to ask him to accept Jesus are challenged and told to take a hike. The question? How does God see this child? Does it matter if he dies without accepting Jesus Christ? Perhaps your argument is that through his works he already has accepted Jesus...through accepting the challenge of the message. My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him? As to his eternal destiny, I won't worry. Promise.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Let's be honest. We really have almost no clue who wrote any of the material included in either the Old or New Testament. Some claim otherwise. Personally I feel that teaching what you say can be a faith killer. If people had no words to trust, no certainty of a messiah or a God or even so much as a spaghetti monster...how can they be encouraged? Simply telling them to go feed people or take out the neighbors trash seems rather limited, but perhaps GOD if GOD exists can and will reach them. I don't like your idea of throwing Jesus away, nor throwing the Bible away and simply trusting the belief that God chose everyone. The reason is because I believe that Jesus is the way to God. You seem to think that obeying our own inner charge and conscience is enough. Maybe after all these years I might agree with you---but I will have to pray about it. After all, you wouldn't want to be teaching something that may end up hurting people.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Some claim otherwise. Personally I feel that teaching what you say can be a faith killer. If people had no words to trust, no certainty of a messiah or a God or even so much as a spaghetti monster...how can they be encouraged? Simply telling them to go feed people or take out the neighbors trash seems rather limited, but perhaps GOD if GOD exists can and will reach them. Yet that is exactly what Jesus said to do and did; feed the hungry, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, protect the helpless ...
Phat writes: I don't like your idea of throwing Jesus away, nor throwing the Bible away and simply trusting the belief that God chose everyone. The reason is because I believe that Jesus is the way to God. Okay, but what does that even mean? How is Jesus the way to anything and why should anyone even care?
Phat writes: You seem to think that obeying our own inner charge and conscience is enough. Maybe after all these years I might agree with you---but I will have to pray about it. After all, you wouldn't want to be teaching something that may end up hurting people. How can helping people hurt people? How can bringing in the neighbors trash can hurt anyone. How can returning the shopping carts hurt anyone? How can holding a door open hurt anyone? How can getting a package down off the high shelf hurt someone? How can kneeling down to be at eye level when talking with kids hurt anyone?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: How is Jesus the way to anything and why should anyone even care? John 14:5-10 writes: Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered,Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. jar writes: How can helping people hurt people? How can bringing in the neighbors trash can hurt anyone. How can returning the shopping carts hurt anyone? How can holding a door open hurt anyone? How can getting a package down off the high shelf hurt someone? How can kneeling down to be at eye level when talking with kids hurt anyone? How can believing that the Creator of all seen and unseen wants to have communion with your soul be a bad thing? How can asking Jesus Christ into your heart be a bad thing? How can praying for others hurt anyone? How can praying with other believers hurt anyone? How can praying with unbelievers who allow you to pray with them be a bad thing? (Especially if you also fixed them a sandwich)
John 14:16-18 writes:
How can it hurt to accept the Spirit of truth? And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
What did Jesus mean when He said that the world neither sees nor knows this Spirit? Edited by Phat, : spelling Edited by Phat, : formatChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Thomas wanted to know where Jesus was going. Jesus answered him and said that no one comes to God except through Jesus.Jesus says that it is the Father living in Him who is doing His work. Is the concept of GOD being in someone that hard to grasp? Yes, it is not just hard to grasp it is meaningless.
Phat writes: How can believing that the Creator of all seen and unseen wants to have communion with your soul be a bad thing? How can asking Jesus Christ into your heart be a bad thing? How can praying for others hurt anyone? How can praying with other believers hurt anyone? How can praying with unbelievers who allow you to pray with them be a bad thing? (Especially if you also fixed them a sandwich) And no one said they must be bad but what good do they do? What the hell does "ask Jesus into your heart" even mean? How can any of those things help?
Phat writes: How can it hurt to accept the Spirit of truth? What did Jesus mean when He said that the world neither sees nor knows this Spirit? I have no idea what it even means "to accept the Spirit of truth". Note that the author of John does not provide an answer or meaning either.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Matthew 25.
The question? How does God see this child? Does it matter if he dies without accepting Jesus Christ? Phat writes:
What would that add?
My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I contend that Paul explains that doing will never get you closer to Heaven. Do you have any Scripture references where Paul says something along those lines explicitly? Phat has acknowledged this reply Is that a "No"?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
A few come to mind.
Ephesians 2:8-10 writes: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. Gal 2:15-16 writes: We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. Romans 11:6 writes: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO MORE GRACE: otherwise work is no more work. If salvation comes by works, then it is NOT by God’s grace anymore. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My only question is why doesn't he accept that the messenger may well be alive and desiring communion with him?
ringo writes: I dunno...lets ask Jesus...
What would that add?John 17:13-21 writes: "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Phat has quoted multiple verses.
quote: Then
quote: Let me take Galatians 2:15-16 first as it leads to a very important issue that must be considered about "the law" and how some Mosaic Law commands transferred into vice lists plus the foundational directive to overseas communities of Acts 15. First, understand that most scholars think that the Galatians controversy, (the subject of the entire book) over Jewish Christians and how their following of the law is considered appropriate in the New Testament economy of "salvation by grace" alone, was referring back to the events around the months of the Apostolic Council of circa 50 A.D. (or a year or so earlier). There is a difference of opinion. (Galatians was written the mid-late 40s according to some, such as F. F. Bruce and most British scholars, or the late 50s, as most scholars worldwide think it was written). Most British scholars think Galatians was written before the (Acts 15) Apostolic Council (thus it becomes the earliest book written that we have in the entire New Testament as opposed to 1 Thessalonians being such) and then refers to earlier events from after chapter 10 and before chapter 14.
quote: Most scholars verses 8 to 10 as referring to the time just after the Acts 15 Apostolic Council ended. You will see that the council (see Acts 15:20-29) kept certain aspects of both the written Mosaic Law and the Oral Law (not written in the Bible but later preserved in the Mishnah of the Talmud), though it was seen as a new post-Christian command and no longer necessarily "The Law" though that depends on perspective. Don't forget that James lead the council. He was the blood brother of Jesus according to the vast majority of scholars. James leadership is Biblical. See these quotes of the leading historian Steven Mason in his Early Christian Reader, as he annotates the text of the Acts of the Apostles. verses 12:17, 15:19, and 15:13 have subscripted reference letters that lead to these obversations.
quote: We know what "James" also said in James 2:26 of the Bible. I'll quote it later - I promise! Lets look at other quotes of yours Phat.
quote: Now here is James 2:26, as I promised.
quote: Phat quoted this in an earlier response to me.
quote: But see Romans 2:25-29
quote: Paul circumcised a Jewish Christian in Acts 16, which the (earlier chapter 15) Apostolic Council did NOT refer to (it was about requirements for gentiles). James seems to have been strongly supportive of circumcising Jewish Christians, and they existed for another 400 years before being killed off by the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Jesus seems to have appointed James as the leader. There were differences of opinion back then (between Paul and James), but most of it was a matter of perspective and terminology. There was a legitimate difference of opinion as to whether one should be circumcised or not - perhaps the fear of James was that eventually more and more of the commands would be dropped if a more Pauline type of denomination ended up severely outnumbering the Jewish Christian type of denomination.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Most teachers whom I study with fail to see your vague conclusion.
Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles. James? James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Two different audiences. Of course the message will differ.
There was a legitimate difference of opinion as to whether one should be circumcised or not - perhaps the fear of James was that eventually more and more of the commands would be dropped if a more Pauline type of denomination ended up severely outnumbering the Jewish Christian type of denomination. I can agree that the fear was probably well founded. Its the same fear we feel today when it is suggested that everyone is saved and that atheists will go to heaven.(without acknowledgment of the Holy Spirit within) Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: I assume you are referring to the issue of there being a Jewish Christian denomination of James and a Pauline Christian denomination of Paul? I'll get around to agreeing with you that too much is made of the disagreements behind Paul and James, Peter, etc., but first the actual issue. Lets look at the term used in Galatians. (I'll start by quoting from a source that I consider quite dishonest and deceptive on this issue, but the first 3 paragraphs will be quoted regardless)
quote: Don't be deceived by what this source says about food laws (in several places) and their sly slight of hand in using the term "ceremonial law" to refer to dietary restrictions. They twist the heck out of the issue. The issue is circumcision (and also animal sacrifices though it isn't explicitly mentioned) essentially. In Philippians 3, Paul said this.
quote: Those who promote circumcision are the dogs (Jews took to calling gentiles dogs at times). Paul attacked Peter as one of the dogs I guess. Even a 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia (ironically) admits that Peter's followers were referred to as one of these. The article is long but notice that Peter/Cephas is admitted to be a judaizer.
quote: If you read the entire article, you will be reading out of date stuff (a bit biased too). But it is still helpful. This "Judaizing" issue was a big issue the orthodox attacked in the first 4 centuries. Church councils attacked Jewish Christians. Like the Council of Laodicea . The issue was forgotten. Here is a quote of F F Bruce from an unpublished book (but is found on computer software. He had a timeline of New testament interpretation.New Testament Interpretation | Logos Bible Software quote: Galatians is interesting.
quote: Now the part about where I think those go too far in exaggerating the differences between Paul and James.
quote: Robert Eisenman in his book on James the Just, made it sound like Paul was only being sarcastic when he said he was a vegetarian in 1 Corinthians 8:13.
quote: Paul was actually in agreement with the vegetarianism, contra Eisenmann.
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