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Author | Topic: Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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Yes, okay; an atheist can argue that a human is of more worth than a bug, but his argument is based on nothing more his own opinion, an opinion that isn't supported by science. In fact, science opposes his opinion; science implies that one form of life is no more important than any other form of life. To claim that the life of human being is worth more than the life of a bug is to be unscientific. As an atheist once told me, "We're just grubs.". If one opines that a human life is worth more than the life of a bug, which part of science says this opinion is correct? In the moral big picture of the Earth's ecology, are humans or bees more important (worth more)? If humans were eliminated from the Earth, would the Earth's ecology be better off or worse off? If bees were eliminated from the Earth, would the Earth's ecology be better off or worse off? I say humans are of negative worth and bees are of positive worth. Bees are of more worth than humans. MooseProfessor, geology, Whatsamatta U Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment. "Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith "Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien "I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 887 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined:
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"Science says" is just a way of saying it is clearly inferable from (evolutionary) science that... Science is a systematic methodology for studying natural phenomenon, not for inferring the value of human existence. Science "says" nothing about the relative importance of humans compared to other creatures. Human minds are what ascribes those values. Yes, people have used scientific findings to devalue human life, but that is not the problem of science, it is the problem of fallen human nature.
It is inferred from the fact that we are considered to be merely animals evolved from earlier animals, Might be a step up from dust
quote: And yet you don't complain that the Bible teaches we are merely animals or just dust. Why? Because it says other stuff too. As it is with evolution. The point of evolution is not to teach that we are merely animals or that we are cosmic accidents, it is an explanation as to how life has come to be the way it is. Conclusions that degrade human value come from the human mind and these types of value statements existed long before evolution was even thought of. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh cut out the semantic hooha. "Science says" means what I said it means, it's certainly how Dredge meant it.
Being created from dust isn't the salient point in the Bible, we know that human beings were created "in the image of God" and given responsibility over the entire Creation. Not just a bunch of mindless chemicals blindly thrown up from a cosmic burp as it were, obviously having NO intrinsic value over anything else brought about in the same way. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 887 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
Oh cut out the semantic hooha. It's not semantics. Science doesn't make those kinds of judgement calls. It doesn't ascribe value.
Not just a bunch of mindless chemicals blindly thrown up from a cosmic burp as it were, obviously having NO intrinsic value over anything else brought about in the same way. That is YOUR judgement, not science's. HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: That is hardly the whole of what science says, nor does science adequately cover the whole of what we are. You say nothing of human capabilities, of human achievements nor of human relationships. I am sorry that evolution offends your pride by not making you special enough to satisfy your ego. But that is hardly a good reason for rejecting it. Edited by PaulK, : Fixed 1 auto "correction"
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh cut out the semantic hooha. It's not semantics. Science doesn't make those kinds of judgement calls. It doesn't ascribe value. Golly gosh, ya don't say? Imagine that. Aren't semantic distinctions clever? Evolutionism is built out of definitional cobwebs like that though, so what else is new? Surely a scientist or two now and then noticed that his science has the effect of demoting humanity from earlier assessments of our worth, particularly Biblical. Have to be brain-dead not to have noticed that.
Not just a bunch of mindless chemicals blindly thrown up from a cosmic burp as it were, obviously having NO intrinsic value over anything else brought about in the same way. That is YOUR judgement, not science's. As I very clearly and carefully pointed out, it is INFERRED from (evolutionary) science and it is, your definitional pedantry notwithstanding.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
Being created from dust isn't the salient point in the Bible, we know that human beings were created "in the image of God" and given responsibility over the entire Creation. Not just a bunch of mindless chemicals blindly thrown up from a cosmic burp as it were, obviously having NO intrinsic value over anything else brought about in the same way. Again (how many times is it necessary to explain this?) being "brought about in the same way" does not make things the same in every respect, or in any given respect. It does not necessarily mean that they have the same weight or color or temperature or value. If it did, then creationism would lead one to the same false "inference" you wish to draw from science. Humans and bugs, you claim, were both brought about by God doing magic. Therefore, by Creationist Logic, a human is no more valuable than a bug. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
God doesn't define us by what our physical bodies are made of, as evolution does. Evolution is materialism, has no way of recognizing the soul or spirit, and of course ridicules the very idea. "Invisible sky wizard" and all that, the soul can only be an invisible human invention on the same pattern. Just a delusion.
Any value attached to humans as evolved is our own invention, and what authority does that have given that we evolved the same as bugs did anyway? You could point out that bugs can't think and perhaps assign them a lesser value than human beings for that reason, but that's a subjective assessment of ours you see, which has no objective standing because we too evolved just as the bug did. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 314 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: |
God doesn't define us by what our physical bodies are made of, as evolution does. And evolution doesn't say that everything made of atoms is identical in every respect.
Any value attached to humans as evolved is our own invention, and what authority does that have given that we evolved the same as bugs did anyway? You could point out that bugs can't think and perhaps assign them a lesser value than human beings for that reason, but that's a subjective assessment of ours you see, which has no objective standing because we too evolved just as the bug did. Do you deny, then, that humans have intrinsic value?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: And it isn't. Neither you nor Dredge have even tried to support such a claim.
quote: Science isn't about moral importance so saying that it doesn't give us any moral importance is a trivial truism without significance. All you are telling us is that YOU take a nihilistic and anti-human stance.
quote: As does the fact that our sun is just a pretty average star in a pretty average galaxy. Are you going to argue for geocentrism because of that ? The fact that we originated from animals instead of through direct divine creation may offend your ego but it does not deny anything we can observe about what humans are or can be. If you reject any of that then it is you doing the rejecting, not science.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Apparently we are supposed to think your arguments are good because you falsely accuse opponents of playing semantic games. Not exactly moral behaviour by most people's standards. But maybe creationists have their own morality.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Diamond and graphite are composed of carbon, the arrangement of atoms being the only difference between them. And they are undeniably objectively different. For instance diamond is used as an abrasive, graphite as a lubricant. Anyone who would try to use an abrasive as a lubricant is making a very serious mistake !
So, we have established at least the possibility that the vastly more complex arrangements of atoms that make up humans and bugs could produce objective differences. For instance a bug is incapable of composing a meaningful post in English. If Dredge and Faith really want us to consider them as no different from bugs their approach is self-defeating. By expecting us to take their posts as even attempts to express their views they are implicitly denying the very point they are trying to make. And, the mention of English and posts leads to another point. Written - or spoken - language is not objective. The forms of the letters, their assembly into words and the translation of words into meaning - all subjective human creations. And it is still not true that "anything goes". There is something to think about.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Golly gosh, ya don't say? Imagine that. Aren't semantic distinctions clever? Evolutionism is built out of definitional cobwebs like that though, so what else is new? Surely a scientist or two now and then noticed that his science has the effect of demoting humanity from earlier assessments of our worth, particularly Biblical. Have to be brain-dead not to have noticed that. Aw.. does the little human animal feel dissed and demoted? Well guess what Faith...it is irrelevant what if you feel dissed or demoted. The fact is that humans are just animals.
Faith writes: As I very clearly and carefully pointed out, it is INFERRED from (evolutionary) science and it is, your definitional pedantry notwithstanding. No Faith, it is simply your imagination. The rest of us understand that science does not make humans less, rather it raises us to equality with the worms and pond scum.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined:
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Which part do you disagree with?
(Btw, you accuse other posters of making assertions without explanation, but I've noticed that you're pretty good at it yourself ; in fact, you're the worst offender.)
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Dredge Member (Idle past 103 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined:
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Why have you drooled this stupid lie? Who do you hope to deceive by telling it?
(Does that sound familiar? It should.) But seriously, you can deny the inescapable implications of your "science", but you can't change them. But, no matter, life is meaningless so you may as well live in a dreamworld. --------------------------------------------------------- Do you need to exist? No, you don't - the universe will proceed quite nicely without human beings. So since you don't need to exist, what is your worth? Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
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