There has been an amazing discovery and it would be even more dramatic if the DNA clock could be more specific. I suppose the evidence is that about half of the DNA from ancient Israel DNA is from folks who first arrived (or were already close by?) during the Neo/Meso Lithic period of about 10,000 years ago BUT the other 50% is from Iran and it seems to be from the time of Abraham (though it could have been something of a slow trickle over thousands of years I suppose - but no later than 3500 years ago).
The ancient Iranian burials (Elamite or Indo Aryan? I don't know for sure as I just found this issue) were matched to burials from multiple time periods in a geographic area fundamentalists would consider to be Greater Israel (or Solomon's Israel) plus the current population.
I need help in sorting out the scientific evidence but the journal article from July 27 is very much relevant to everything about origins.
Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequence
( I decided to do a google search on archaeological discoveries after a great 6 hour conversation last night with an American (he had Palestinian Sunni parents but isn't a believer in Islam at all) about which region had the original ideas that made it into most religions. He started to use his phone to read sites on Zoroastrianism and he was impressed with what he saw. He seems to consider Iran the breadbasket of modern religious views even more so than me - though I was often arguing that many Israelite ideas might have predated certain LATE Zoroastrian texts that he was reading. He started by saying that Islam was just a copy of the Jewish and Christian religion, but now considers the ideas to have come from the east )
I found a ton of articles before finding the original source.
Here is the second I read
quote: Ancient DNA reveals fate of the mysterious Canaanites
By Lizzie WadeJul. 27, 2017 , 12:00 PM
When the pharaohs ruled Egypt and the ancient Greeks built their first cities, a mysterious people called the Canaanites dominated the Near East. Around 4000 years ago, they built cities across the Levant, which includes present-day Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, and part of Syria. Yet the Canaanites left no surviving written records, leaving researchers to piece together their history from secondhand sources.
One of those sources is the Bible’s Old Testament, which suggests a grisly end for many Canaanites: After the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt, God ordered them to destroy Canaan and its people (though other passages suggest that some Canaanites may have survived). But did that really happen? Archaeological data suggests that Canaanite cities were never destroyed or abandoned. Now, ancient DNA recovered from five Canaanite skeletons suggests that these people survived to contribute their genes to millions of people living today.
The new samples come from Sidon, a coastal city in Lebanon. Marc Haber, a geneticist at the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Hinxton, U.K., extracted enough DNA from the ancient skeletons to sequence the whole genomes of five Canaanite individuals, all around 3700 years old.
Haber’s first mission was to figure out who the Canaanites were, genetically speaking. Ancient Greek sources suggested they had migrated to the Levant from the East. To test that, Haber and colleagues compared the Canaanite genomes to those of other ancient populations in Eurasia. It turned out the Greeks were half right: About 50% of the Canaanites’ genes came from local farmers who settled the Levant about 10,000 years ago. But the other half was linked to an earlier population identified from skeletons found in Iran, the team reports today in The American Journal of Human Genetics. The researchers estimate these Eastern migrants arrived in the Levant and started mixing with locals around 5000 years ago.
This finding fits with other recent studies of the Levant. Iosif Lazaridis, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School in Boston, saw the same mixture of eastern and local ancestry in the genomes of ancient skeletons from Jordan. “It’s nice to see that what we observed wasn’t a fluke of our particular site, but was part of this broader Canaanite population,” Lazaridis says.
Now that Haber had confirmed who the Canaanites were, he set out to find out what happened to them. He compared their genomes to those of 99 living Lebanese people and hundreds of others in genetic databases. Haber found that the present-day Lebanese population is largely descended from the ancient Canaanites, inheriting more than 90% of their genes from this ancient source. The other 7% may have come from migrants from Central Europe who moved to the Levant around 3000 years ago.
So does the new study show that there was no war between the Israelites and the Canaanites? Not necessarily, says Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute geneticist Chris Tyler-Smith, who worked with Haber. Genes don’t always track conflict. “You can have genetically similar or indistinguishable populations that are culturally very different and don’t get on with one another at all,” Tyler-Smith says. This might have been the case with the Israelites and the Canaanites—similar genes, but sworn enemies.
“If those populations conquer each other, it probably wouldn’t leave traces that we could easily pick up [with ancient DNA],” agrees Johannes Krause, a geneticist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, who wasn’t involved in the current work. Perhaps there was a Biblical war that ancient DNA simply cannot see.
The 3000 BCE date of arrival could be as late as 1500 BCE.
quote: This Canaanite-related ancestry derived from mixture between local Neolithic populations and eastern migrants genetically related to Chalcolithic Iranians. We estimate, using linkage-disequilibrium decay patterns, that admixture occurred 6,600–3,550 years ago, coinciding with recorded massive population movements in Mesopotamia during the mid-Holocene. We show that present-day Lebanese derive most of their ancestry from a Canaanite-related population, which therefore implies substantial genetic continuity in the Levant since at least the Bronze Age. In addition, we find Eurasian ancestry in the Lebanese not present in Bronze Age or earlier Levantines. We estimate that this Eurasian ancestry arrived in the Levant around 3,750–2,170 years ago during a period of successive conquests by distant populations.
The range is from 4600 BCE to 1550 BCE for an Iranian Abraham to have migrated with the waves. (I consider the latest possible dates to be the most likely considering the Hurrian influx from that time. )
The 1750 BCE to 170 BCE migrations are secondary.
There is a circa 1350 BCE treaty between the Hittites and a people with Indo-Aryan gods (what we would now call Hindu gods). These people made up a ruling class in Egypt (they brought the horse to Egypt as they were among the Hyksos and other Canaanites). The Jerusalem that David took was ruled by these people. These people have names all over the Egyptian and Palestinian texts from the 500+ year period before the time of the Israelite monarchy.
Some theonyms, proper names and other terminology of the Mitanni are considered to form (part of) an Indo-Aryan superstrate, suggesting that an Indo-Aryan elite imposed itself over the Hurrian population in the course of the Indo-Aryan expansion. In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni (between Suppiluliuma and ... Attested words and ... · Names of people · Names of gods · Horse training
Mitanni also called Hanigalbat in Assyrian or Naharin in Egyptian texts, was a Hurrian-speaking state in northern Syria and southeast Anatolia from c. 1500–1300 BC. Mitanni came to be a regional power after the Hittite destruction of Amorite ... Hittite annals mention a people called Hurri (Ḫu-ur-ri), located in northeastern ... Name · People · History · Indo-Aryan superstrate
The Hittites used the Hurrian language extensively in their inscriptions. ... In the treaty, the Hittite King Suppiluliuma agreed to assist Shattiwaza gain the Mitanni ... Location · Wassukanni / Washukanni ... · Mitanni Dynasty · Arta
To the east the Mitanni had good relations with the Hurrian-speaking Kassites whose ... Later Egyptian dynasties entered into pacts and treaties with Mitanni and the ... Egypt backed Tushratta in this conflict while the Hittite king Suppiluliuma I ...
Kingdom of Mitanni aristocracy shows Indo-Aryan roots
Jan 17, 2016 - However, with the ascent of the Hittite empire, Mitanni and Egypt made an ... Their sphere of influence is shown in Hurrian place names, personal .... In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni, the deities Mitra, Varuna, ...
Ancient Indians in Mitanni. Excerpts from Suppiluliuma (Hittite ...
This should be seen as a smoking gun for the origin of the Amorite population which became what we know as West Semitic (ie Abraham and the Israelites). It should tell us that the Semitic language was taken over by Indo Iranians in Mesopotamia. Perhaps it happened over a period from 3000 BCE till 2000 BCE and the westward migrations happened during that time and after.
Were the Sumerians part of this Elamite group?
How did the Greek mythology get influenced?
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added "[url=" code to two links to make them clickable. Before, the links looked proper but for some reason the clickable portion of the link was a truncated version of the entire link.]" code to two links to make them clickable. Before, the links looked proper but for some reason the clickable portion of the link was a truncated version of the entire link.
Please use the URL tag - the link to Cell doesn't work in my browser.
Much of the reporting around this find seems to be mistaken. Sidon wasn't conquered by the Israelites, so we'd expect the people there to be Canaanite (Phoenician). The modern population might be expected to have mixes from a lot of sources, but it's not really that surprising to see that the genes of the Iron Age inhabitants are still dominant.
And there's no real connection to the - possibly mythical - Abraham either. Abraham was supposed to have come from Ur in Mesopotamia (The South of modern Iraq) and should have been of Semitic ethnicity.
So, slightly interesting but it's being stretched beyond anything it really connects to.
Re: (2) links that shouldn't have need fixing fixed
The one that doesn't work is the implicit form of links. It triggers off strings that begin with "http://" or "https://" or "ftp://" or "www" This might be fixable, I'm not sure, I'll have to think about it. Actually, of course it's fixable, I just don't know how hard it would be or whether there might be undesirable side effects.
The link gets truncated at the open parenthesis, and this is because parentheses are not included as legal characters for implicit links. I naturally don't remember how I chose the legal characters around 15 years ago when I wrote version 1 of the software, but I suspect that I thought links might be included within parentheses, like this, and you wouldn't want that close parenthesis included as part of the link:
The Hindu think it is an article of faith that the Punjab (modern Pakistan) civilizations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro from 3000 BCE were Indo Aryan peoples.
Historians place the arrival around (though it depends on the exact region of Iran - north or south. In India, the northern Afghanistan region is relevant I think)1500 BCE.
The arrival of Persians would be around 1500 BCE - according to historians.
The area of southern Iran called Elam (in the New Testament Acts 2 text, Elam is the name of ancient Susa though I think Elamites were long gone as an axisting language group and perhaps even a people) is where there was a Semitic/Sumerian related culture though the inscriptions can't be read.
My idea has to do with a (very?) small group of Indo Aryan speaking people arriving in Iran and mixing with the darker skinned natives (Elamites in Iran and Harappan folk in India or modern day Pakistan), but the exact language I can't claim to know, especially if the earlier DNA clock dates are accepted.
I independently reached the conclusion that the Sumerians, Elamites and Harappans of 5000 years ago were the same people. (not that it was much more than a guess about an issue that I lack the bulk of needed research on)
I have read good academic works (but lost the title) that reached the same conclusion.
Here is a google link that might help those with interest.
I'm not sure how mixed the people would have been and exactly how the linguistic lines related to original inhabitants (in religion and race).
Here is the standard view of arrival.
quote: RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD FOURTH EDITION Lewis M. Hopfe 1988 p.84
The Aryans are believed to have been the people who first tamed horses on a wide scale and used them to pull war chariots. They were related to the Hyksos people who INVADED Egypt in the second millennium B.C. and ruled it for two hundred years. ...The Aryans who did not migrate into India became the founders of Zoroastrianism. There are many similarities between the religion revealed in the Indian Vedic literature and the Gathas of Zoroastrianism. These same people later founded the Persian Empire, which ruled the Middle East from the sixth to the fourth centuries B.C. .... During the period between 1750 and 1200 B.C. the Aryans came in migratory waves into the Indus valley
quote: Much of the reporting around this find seems to be mistaken. Sidon wasn't conquered by the Israelites, so we'd expect the people there to be Canaanite (Phoenician). The modern population might be expected to have mixes from a lot of sources, but it's not really that surprising to see that the genes of the Iron Age inhabitants are still dominant.
I was shocked to see so little change from the last 3700 years (the Iron Age started after 1200 BCE or 3200 years ago). Disturbed actually.
And the research includes sites from (what is now) modern day Israel ( Palestine) and Jordan, with DNA (I need to re read it though as I haven't been on the computer since I quickly posted the thread).
quote: And there's no real connection to the - possibly mythical - Abraham either. Abraham was supposed to have come from Ur in Mesopotamia (The South of modern Iraq) and should have been of Semitic ethnicity.
So, slightly interesting but it's being stretched beyond anything it really connects to.
The Babylonians were actually West Semites who took the East Semitic Akkadian language. Hammurabi was actually from the same ethnicity as the later Hebrews (Amorite or West Semitic). And he knew it
The West Semitic peoples seem to have conquered the Sumerian 3rd Dynasty of Ur.
The Amorites were already present in certain numbers.
There were a ton of East Semites already there as the Sargon The Great Empire was East Semitic.
There were already Semites (even west) plus Indo Aryan peoples in the 3rd millennium.
Why couldn't Indo Aryans have mixed in with Amorites 4000 years ago in Mesopotamia?
We know that the Philistines (in Palestine) were no longer eating pork after 1000 BCE plus they practiced circumcision as well 200 years after their arrival. Their language was Canaanite by then too.
That is one Indo Aryan group that essentially became Canaanite (though the actual Aegean elite might have always been a small component of the overall population even in 'Philistine" cities) though they were aware of the European origins.
(EDIT the Hurrians arrived before 1500 BCE according to archaeological discoveries in Palestinian sites)
The Hurrians that came to Palestine and Egypt became Semitic speakers.
quote: And there's no real connection to the - possibly mythical - Abraham either. Abraham was supposed to have come from Ur in Mesopotamia (The South of modern Iraq) and should have been of Semitic ethnicity.
Here is my point earlier.
The direct successors to the Sumerians of Ur were Semites. West Semitic peoples (called the Amuru or Amorites) who were already slowly trickling in but adopting a different language - Akkadian and Sumerian.
A large group of people can migrate in and take a different language.
Look at France from around the 4th 5th century.
Like the Franks taking Latin but keeping their ethnic heritage otherwise.
The Amorites were an ancient Semitic-speaking people from Syria who also occupied large ... In the earliest Sumerian texts, all western lands beyond the Euphrates, including the ... 2050 – 1750 BC) became the most powerful entity in Mesopotamia immediately preceding the rise of the Amorite king Hammurabi of Babylon.
Amorites. Semitic-speaking nomadic pastoralists. By 2000 B.C. these tribes ... the most famous is that of Babylon with its sixth king Hammurabi (1792-1750 B.C.). ... People who entered western Iran in the 2nd millennium B.C. The Medes, allied ...
Peoples of the Bible: The legend of the Amorites - Archaeology ...
Feb 6, 2017 - Amorites: A people descended from Emer, the fourth son of Canaan, according ... Nor can we be sure that the increasing prominence of West Semitic names is .... Hammurabi's Code is essentially a collection of decisions and ...
Jun 21, 2015 - Their most noted king, Hammurabi, was the first king of the Babylon Empire. ... Since their language shows northwest Semitic forms, words and .... located on the west bank of the Euphrates River in what was once northern.
Amurru, the Home of the Northern Semites by A. T. Clay - Jstor
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3141556 was an amalgamation of what was once Amorite, or west Semitic, and the. Sumerian ... an early Babylonian dynasty-some two centuries before Hammurabi-.
quote: And you miss the point about Abraham. The point is not that Semites couldn't come from the region of Ur, just that they would not show Iranian ancestry.
But the Hurrians and Kassites had Iranian names in (perhaps) a small and elite(?) number of individuals.
Who were the Kassites?
quote: The Kassites (/ˈkćsaɪts/) were a people of the ancient Near East, who controlled Babylonia after the fall of the Old Babylonian Empire c. 1531 BC and until c. 1155 BC (short chronology). The endonym of the Kassites was probably Galzu, although they have also been referred to by the names Kaššu, Kassi, Kasi or Kashi.
They gained control of Babylonia after the Hittite sack of the city in 1595 BC (i.e. 1531 BC per the short chronology), and established a dynasty based in Dur-Kurigalzu. The Kassites were members of a small military aristocracy but were efficient rulers and not locally unpopular, and their 500-year reign laid an essential groundwork for the development of subsequent Babylonian culture. The horse, which the Kassites worshipped, first came into use in Babylonia at this time.
The Kassite language has not been classified. What is known is that their language was not related to either the Indo-European language group, nor to Semitic or other Afro-Asiatic languages, and is most likely to have been a language isolate (a stand-alone language unrelated to any other), although some linguists have proposed a link to the Hurro-Urartian languages of Asia Minor. However, several Kassite leaders bore Indo-Aryan names, and they might have had an Indo-Aryan elite similar to the Mitanni, who ruled over the Hurro-Urartian-speaking Hurrians of Asia Minor. Their leaders frequently cited the names of Vedic deities in their official inscriptions, negotiations, treaties abs communication. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassites
They defeated the Babylonian Amorite (remember, they are same ethnicity as Jewish folk) dynasty around 1600 BCE.
They then ruled Babylon for about 400 years. They took over just after the flood epic of Atrahasis was written during Amizaduka's (spelling?) reign. They also returned the statue of Marduk (which was dragged off by the Hittites earlier).
Atrahasis was the first flood story and it was written c. 1600 (if one knows exactly when AmiSaduka reigned, then the date is precisely known). It was man being created from the dirt and then the flood is attached to the creation story. Genesis 2 through 9 is the parallel.
Marduk was the God that Enuma Elish was dedicated to and it is essentially an early version of Genesis 1.
The Kassites thus have connections to the 2 creation stories of Genesis and the flood.
The Hurrians and/or the Hittites have commonly been seen as the carriers of these stories to Palestine.
Remember the 1400 BCE Hittite/Hurrian treaty that mentions Mithra and Varuna?
The "Jebusite" ruler of Jerusalem (see 2 Samuel 24) had a Hurrian name that are very similar to Varuna (and for that matter, the prince Arjuna of the much later Bhagavad Gita)
Take a look at Varuna
quote: The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions John Bowker (ed.) Oxford University Press (1997)
p. 1016 Varuna. Early Hindu god, prominent in the Vedic period. Possibly connected with vr ('veil'), he was associated with the all-covering sky, but in the *Vedas his activities resemble those of *Indra and *Agni. As a ruler of the *Adityas, he maintains celestial order, especially the seasons, sunrise and sunset, rainfall (Rg Veda 6. 48. 14,10. 99. 10). As Lord of *rta, he watches over humanity with a thousand eyes and he shares responsibility for sacrificial order. He is also connected with the emergent and related concept of *dharma. He remains particularly connected with oceans and rivers, though in later mythology Indra has taken precedence over him and he has been reduced to the god of death.
quote: p.648 Mitra. Hindu Vedic god, one of the *Adityas, 'he who awakens people at daybreak and prompts them to work' (Rg. Veda 3. 59. I). Because mitra means 'friend', Mitra is usually associated with another god in partnership, especially *Varuna. Mitra-Varuna are handsome, shining, and young. They are appointed kings by the *devas, and *Soma is pressed for them. Since Mitra rules over day, Varuna rules over night.
J. Gonda, Mitra (1972)
Look at Varuna in the Rig Veda.
quote: 1. I AM the royal Ruler, mine is empire, as mine who sway all life are all Immortals. Varuna's will the Gods obey and follow. I am the King of men's most lofty cover. 2. I am King Varuna. To me were given these first existinghigh celestial powers. Varuna's will the Gods obey and follow. I am the King of men's most lofty cover. 3. I Varuna am Indra: in their greatness, these the two wide deep fairly-fashioned regions, These the two world-halves have I, even as Tvastar knowing all beings, joined and held together. 4. I made to flow the moisture-shedding waters, and set the heaven firm in the scat of Order. By Law the Son of Aditi, Law Observer, hath spread abroad the world in threefold measure. 5. Heroes with noble horses, fain for battle, selected warriors, call on me in combat. I Indra Maghavan, excite the conflict; I stir the dust, Lord of surpassing vigour. 6. All this I did. The Gods' own conquering power never impedeth me whom none opposeth. When lauds and Soma juice have made me joyful, both the unbounded regions are affrighted. 7. All beings know these deeds of thine thou tellest this unto Varuna, thou great Disposer! Thou art renowned as having slain the Vrtras. Thou madest flow the floods that were obstructed. 8. Our fathers then were these, the Seven his, what time the son of Durgaha was captive. For her they gained by sacrifice Trasadasyu, a demi-god, like Indra, conquering foemen. 9. The spouse of Purukutsa gave oblations to you, O Indra-Varuna, with homage. Then unto her ye gave King Trasadasyu, the demi-god, the slayer of the foeman. 10. May we, possessing much, delight in riches, Gods in oblations and the kine in pasture; And that Milch-cow who ahrinks not from the milking, O Indra-Varuna, give to us daily.
(like Genesis 1 and Job 26) (like the Enuma Elish Marduk story)
quote: In the early Vedic religion, Vritra (Sanskrit: वृत्र, vṛtra, lit. 'enveloper') is a serpent or dragon, the personification of drought and adversary of Indra. In Hinduism, Vritra is identified as an Asura. Vritra was also known in the Vedas as Ahi (Sanskrit: अहि ahi, lit. 'snake'). He appears as a dragon blocking the course of the rivers and is heroically slain by Indra. .... Vedic version
According to the Rig Veda, Vritra kept the waters of the world captive until he was killed by Indra, who destroyed all the 99 fortresses of Vritra (although the fortresses are sometimes attributed to Sambara) before liberating the imprisoned rivers. The combat began soon after Indra was born, and he had drunk a large volume of Soma at Tvashtri's house to empower him before facing Vritra. Tvashtri fashioned the thunderbolt (Vajrayudha) for Indra, and Vishnu, when asked to do so by Indra, made space for the battle by taking the three great strides for which Vishnu became famous. Vritra broke Indra's two jaws during the battle, but was then thrown down by Indra and, in falling, crushed the fortresses that had already been shattered. For this feat, Indra became known as Vritrahan "slayer of Vritra" and also as "slayer of the first-born of dragons". Vritra's mother, Danu (who was also the mother of the Danava race of Asuras), was then attacked and defeated by Indra with his thunderbolt. In one of the versions of the story, three Devas – Varuna, Soma and Agni – were coaxed by Indra into aiding him in the fight against Vritra whereas before they had been on the side of Vritra (whom they called "Father").
In one verse of a Rig-Vedic hymn eulogising Sarasvati, she is portrayed as the one who slayed Vritra. Mention of this occurs nowhere else.
Hymn 18 of Mandala IV provides the most elaborate account of the Vedic version. The verses describe the events and circumstances leading up to the battle between Indra and Vritra, the battle itself, and the outcome of the battle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vritra
Varuna was known is the Middle East and it might explain some of the sacrificial issues that centered around the end of the flood. The early Christian communities were well aware of the sacrificing (not to mention eating) of animals being related to the waters being tamed (though the primeval dragon element was lost) and the Noachian flood covenant.
The flood stories all have the God's being fed sacrifices.
The Genesis 1 details seem to be relevant to the attributes of these Gods that were known in the region.
Why couldn't people be mixed in with each other?
Hurrian parallels have long been recognized as being related to the Patriarchal stories in Genesis.
Once has to wonder if the stories of Abraham reflect a mixed Indo Iranian Hurrian and Semitic heritage.
On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
Well, what did you mean when you said that they would not show Iranian ancestry?
quote: And you miss the point about Abraham. The point is not that Semites couldn't come from the region of Ur, just that they would not show Iranian ancestry.
How does that square with the evidence of the Sidonian burials from 1700 BCE.
The Sidonians lived among the Israelites.
quote: Joshua 13 New International Version (NIV)
Land Still to Be Taken
13 When Joshua had grown old, the Lord said to him, “You are now very old, and there are still very large areas of land to be taken over.
2 “This is the land that remains: all the regions of the Philistines and Geshurites, 3 from the Shihor River on the east of Egypt to the territory of Ekron on the north, all of it counted as Canaanite though held by the five Philistine rulers in Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath and Ekron; the territory of the Avvites 4 on the south; all the land of the Canaanites, from Arah of the Sidonians as far as Aphek and the border of the Amorites; 5 the area of Byblos; and all Lebanon to the east, from Baal Gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo Hamath.
6 “As for all the inhabitants of the mountain regions from Lebanon to Misrephoth Maim, that is, all the Sidonians, I myself will drive them out before the Israelites. Be sure to allocate this land to Israel for an inheritance, as I have instructed you, 7 and divide it as an inheritance among the nine tribes and half of the tribe of Manasseh.”
quote: 1 Kings 5:4-6 New International Version (NIV)
4 But now the Lord my God has given me rest on every side, and there is no adversary or disaster. 5 I intend, therefore, to build a temple for the Name of the Lord my God, as the Lord told my father David, when he said, ‘Your son whom I will put on the throne in your place will build the temple for my Name.’
6 “So give orders that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me. My men will work with yours, and I will pay you for your men whatever wages you set. You know that we have no one so skilled in felling timber as the Sidonians.”
quote: Judges 1:27-35 New International Version (NIV)
27 But Manasseh did not drive out the people of Beth Shan or Taanach or Dor or Ibleam or Megiddo and their surrounding settlements, for the Canaanites were determined to live in that land. 28 When Israel became strong, they pressed the Canaanites into forced labor but never drove them out completely. 29 Nor did Ephraim drive out the Canaanites living in Gezer, but the Canaanites continued to live there among them. 30 Neither did Zebulun drive out the Canaanites living in Kitron or Nahalol, so these Canaanites lived among them, but Zebulun did subject them to forced labor. 31 Nor did Asher drive out those living in Akko or Sidon or Ahlab or Akzib or Helbah or Aphek or Rehob. 32 The Asherites lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land because they did not drive them out. 33 Neither did Naphtali drive out those living in Beth Shemesh or Beth Anath; but the Naphtalites too lived among the Canaanite inhabitants of the land, and those living in Beth Shemesh and Beth Anath became forced laborers for them. 34 The Amorites confined the Danites to the hill country, not allowing them to come down into the plain. 35 And the Amorites were determined also to hold out in Mount Heres, Aijalon and Shaalbim, but when the power of the tribes of Joseph increased, they too were pressed into forced labor.
I think it is obvious that the Sidonians lived among the Israelites.
And they would have mixed in (at all times and especially in the earlier "patriarchal period")
Ahab had a wife from the Jezreel valley. Saul had two sons with Canaanite names. Saul was the first ever recorded king of Israel. Ahab was a king from a few centuries later.
According to the Hebrew Bible, Ish-bosheth also called Eshbaal Ashbaal or Ishbaal, was one of ... The names Ish-bosheth and Eshbaal have ambiguous meanings in the original Hebrew. In Hebrew ... Ish-bosheth Saul's son was forty years old when he began to reign over Israel, and he reigned two years." (2 Samuel ... The names · The name Ish-bosheth · The other name: Eshba'al · Archaeology
According to the Books of Samuel of the Tanakh, Mephibosheth (Bib Heb: מְפִיבֹשֶׁת, Trans: Mefivoshet, Məp̄îḇṓšeṯ ; meaning "from the mouth of shame" or "from the mouth of god Bashtu") or Merib-baal (Bib Heb: מְרִיב־בַּעַל, Trans: Meriv-Ba'al, Mərîḇ-Báʻal) was the son of Jonathan, grandson of King Saul and father of ...
Baal properly Baʿal was a title and honorific meaning "lord" in the Northwest Semitic ... Baʿal was also used as a proper name by the third millennium BCE, when he appears in a list of deities at Abu Salabikh. .... "The Lord Strives"), Saul's son Eshbaʿal ("The Lord is Great"), and David's son Beeliada ("The Lord Knows").
Saul according to the Hebrew Bible, was the first king of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah. ... Saul also had a concubine named Rizpah, daughter of Aiah, who bore him two ... (2 Samuel 21:14) Three of Saul's sons – Jonathan, and Abinadab, and ...... Abraha · Bal'am/Balaam · Barṣīṣā · Nebuchadnezzar II · Nimrod · Potiphar ...
Topical Bible: Eshbaal - Bible Hub
Eshbaal. 1 Chronicles 8:33, the fourth son of Saul, generally called Ishbosheth. The word BAAL, the name of an idol, was not pronounced by scrupulous Jews; ...
Why Is the Son of Saul's Name Different in 2 Samuel Versus 1 ...
Anat or Anath is a major northwest Semitic goddess. Contents. . 1 In Ugarit; 2 In Egypt ... Nowhere in these texts is 'Anat explicitly Ba'al Hadad's consort. .... in Canaanite tradition as Anath and Astarte, particularly in the poetry of Ugarit.
Consort: Ba‘al Hadad brother and possibly lover
Symbol: Atef Crown
Anat, the Canaanite Goddess of War and Sacrifice - Thalia Took
Nov 17, 2016 - She was the first consort of Anu, and the pair were the parents of the ... John Day, Yahweh & the Gods & Goddesses of Canaan (Sheffield ... 'Anat in Ugarit · 'Anat in Egypt · 'Anat in Israel
Anat (Anatu, Anath, Anata, Anta, Antu, Anant, Anit, Antit) Mother of Gods. ... the Goddess Anat was known among the Canaanites in prehistoric times, and was ... she is the daughter of El, sister (though perhaps not literally) and consort of Baal.
As for Abraham himself, we have lots of very conservative sources who see his Shechem as a Canaanite location (before becoming "Israelite" and remember that most scholars and historians - not to mention archaeologists - see the evidence indicating an evolutionary process with Canaanites becoming Israelites NOT THROUGH AN INVASION but via an initial religious evolution and then eventually increasing numbers of Canaanite conversions to the Israelite method of worship and in essence an evolved religion). Remember in Judges the Temple in Shechem is called both el-berith and Baal-berith which means Lord of the Covenant. Joshua made a covenant at Shechem.
quote: Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel By Eugene H. Merrill (1988 Baker Academic) Shechem had long been associated with the special presence of Yahweh. Abraham had built his first sltar there, Jacob had bought property there and dug a well, Joseeph was buried there, and Joshua had led the nation in covenant reaffirmation at Shechem. The central sanctuary, however, had been established at Shiloh, and so it appears that Shechem had been taken over by anti-Yahwist elements that had seized upon its hoary sanctity as justification for the establishment of a Baal cult center. The very name of Baal there, Baal-Berith (lord of covenant), probably harks back to thee ccovenant traditions of the place, beginning with Abraham and continuing through Joshua. In line with common practice, the covenant-making function of Yahweh was simply transferred to Baal so that he, not Yahweh, was viewed as the god who made Shechem a holy place. (subscript note 79) .... (note 79 text) This interpretation runs counter to that of most scholars, who argue the reverse, that is, that the site was originally devoted to a Canaanite cult and was aappropriated by Israel for Yahweh worship. See Martin Noth, The History of Israel, 2nd ed. (New York: Harper & Row, 1960), 98-99; G. Ernest Wright, "Deuteronomy," in The Interpreters Bible, ed. George A. Buttrick et al. (New York: Abingdon-Cokesbury, 1953), 2:326.
I just quoted a fundamentalist or very conservative source.
Along the ultra conservative line of reasoning, consider this:
The Freemason group itself has its mythological founder as a Canaanite who lived during the time of King Solomon. He was given a name that was same as the Canaanite king of Tyre.
There is plenty of evidence of Canaanites and Israelites living together in the Biblical text (free of any "liberal scholarship" interpretations).
But, you raised an issue of ancestry of Abraham and it might be as murky as the man itself and that assumes that there was an actual migration from Ur in Babylonia (or earlier Sumeria though the Bible uses the much later name for the region: Chaldea).
The issue you raise is one of those things that depends on whether one assumes some sort of mythical racial purity among the Israelites.
(nevermind that Ruth and Rahab the harlot are in the family tree of Jesus in the Gospels and don't even get me going on the Uriah the Hittite issue since it gets to the rub of the matter)
Canaanites were demonstrated to have been of Iranian (or whatever) ancestry.
I ask how you can say that Abraham wouldn't have such?
More google for thought.
[PDF]the social environment of the patriarchs - Tyndale House
by MJ SELMAN - 1976 - Cited by 12 - Related articles home specifically among the Hurrian population of approximately the same area at ... include the inheritance agreement between Abraham and. Eliezer (Gn. 15) ... held that those patriarchal customs to which parallels have been found at Nuzi ...
BiblicalStudies.org.uk: Archaeology and the Patriarchs by Robert I ...
by RI Bradshaw - 1992 - Related articles This extrabiblical data has been used in three ways to furnish parallels to ... In Genesis 23 Abraham buys the Cave of Machpelah from Ephron the Hittite as a ...
From the Patriarchs to Moses: From Abraham to Joseph William ... - jstor
Some two or three centuries before Abraham, the wandering Semites of North Arabia ...... parallels to Genesis 14, which we shall not discuss here since they involve too many .... thermore, the mixture of Hurrians and Northwestern Semites.
The Message of Genesis 12-50 - Google Books Result
Joyce G. Baldwin - 1986 J. van Seters, Abraham in History and Tradition (Yale, 1975), pp. 91-92. 7. ... 39-40. 8. J.J. Bimson, 'Archaeological Data and the Dating of the Patriarchs', EOPN, pp. ... 159), and some of the names in verses 20-30 have Hurrian parallels.
The Bible in Its World: The Bible and Archaeology Today
K. A. Kitchen - 2004 - Religion pelled or sold (so, Hammurabi's laws, § 146), thus Abraham's unwillingness to do so ... Third, the thesis of a specially Hurrian component in the legal/social usages at Nuzi largely evaporates - and has no bearing on the patriarchs either. ... One such is the supposed Nuzi parallels for Abraham calling his wife his 'sister' (Gen.
The Patriarchal Age: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob · The BAS Library
In Canaan, Abram's son Isaac is born, and Isaac, in turn, becomes the father of Jacob, ... Second, Albright, Speiser and others cited numerous parallels between ... to associate the patriarchs directly with the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni, it was ...
Zondervan Illustrated Bible Dictionary - Page 107 - Google Books Result
J. D. Douglas, Merrill C. Tenney - 2011 - Religion It contains remarkable parallels to the biblical account, such as a warning of the ... found in many ancient languages including Assyrian, Hittite, Hurrian, and Sumerian. The period of the patriarchs has been illuminated by the discovery in 1925 of ... on customs that existed in the very region inhabited by the family of Abraham.
The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Isreal and ...
Israel Finkelstein, Neil Asher Silberman - 2002 - Religion Parallels like this, they argued, cannot be found in later periods in the history of the ... the customs of the Hurrians, a nonSemitic people who established the powerful ... is similar to the adoption of Eliezer by Abraham as his heir (Genesis 15:2–3). ... and the biblical material on the age of the patriarchs were understood on the ...
Biblical History and Israel S Past: The Changing Study of the Bible ...
Megan Bishop Moore, Brad E. Kelle - 2011 - History ... around the fifteenth century b.c.e. were discovered at the Hurrian site of Nuzi during excavations ... 37–50); and several other practices that seemed to parallel stories from ... reconstructions of the patriarchs and matriarchs in the mid–twentieth century, ... Albright himself, for example, envisioned Abraham as the leader of a ...
Abraham bought the cave from a Hittite so he was at the very least said to have been around Indo Aryan type peoples (though admittedly the relationship was distant and perhaps they should only be described as Indo European and not Indo Aryan). And the Hittites were living among the Hurrians (an important group because they worshipped Varuna and Mithra) for sure - as Abraham and the patriarchs would have been also.
On the Hittites.
quote: The Hittites (/ˈhɪtaɪts/) were an Ancient Anatolian people who established an empire centered on Hattusa in north-central Anatolia around 1600 BC. This empire reached its height during the mid-14th century BC under Suppiluliuma I, when it encompassed an area that included most of Anatolia as well as parts of the northern Levant and Upper Mesopotamia. Between the 15th and 13th centuries BC the Hittite Empire came into conflict with the Egyptian Empire, Middle Assyrian Empire and the empire of the Mitanni for control of the Near East. The Assyrians eventually emerged as the dominant power and annexed much of the Hittite empire, while the remainder was sacked by Phrygian newcomers to the region. After c. 1180 BC, during the Bronze Age collapse, the Hittites splintered into several independent "Neo-Hittite" city-states, some of which survived until the 8th century BC before succumbing to the Neo-Assyrian Empire.
The Hittite language was a distinct member of the Anatolian branch of the Indo-European language family, and along with the related Luwian language, is the oldest historically attested Indo-European language. They referred to their native land as Hatti. The conventional name "Hittites" is due to their initial identification with the Biblical Hittites in 19th century archaeology. Despite their use of the name Hatti for their core territory, the Hittites should be distinguished from the Hattians, an earlier people who inhabited the same region (until the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC) and spoke an unrelated language known as Hattic. .... Biblical background
See also: Biblical Hittites .... Sayce and other scholars also noted that Judah and the Hittites were never enemies in the Hebrew texts; in the Book of Kings, they supplied the Israelites with cedar, chariots, and horses, as well as being a friend and ally to Abraham in the Book of Genesis. Uriah (the Hittite) was a captain in King David's army and counted among one of his "mighty men" in 1 Chronicles 11.
.... Geography To the southeast of the Hittites lay the Hurrian empire of Mitanni. At its peak, during the reign of Mursili II, the Hittite empire stretched from Arzawa in the west to Mitanni in the east, many of the Kaskian territories to the north including Hayasa-Azzi in the far north-east, and on south into Canaan approximately as far as the southern border of Lebanon, incorporating all of these territories within its domain. .... Origins
It is generally assumed that the Hittites came into Anatolia some time before 2000 BC. While their earlier location is disputed, it has been speculated by scholars for more than a century that the Kurgan cultures of the Pontic Steppe, in present-day Ukraine, around the Sea of Azov spoke an early Indo-European language during the third and fourth millennia BC.
The arrival of the Hittites in Anatolia in the Bronze Age was one of a superstrate imposing itself on a native culture (in this case over the pre existing Hattians and Hurrians), either by means of conquest or by gradual assimilation .... Their movement into the region may have set off a Near East mass migration sometime around 1900 BC. The dominant indigenous inhabitants in central Anatolia at the time were Hurrians and Hattians who spoke non-Indo-European languages (some have argued that Hattic was a Northwest Caucasian language, but its affiliation remains uncertain), whilst the Hurrian language was a language isolate. There were also Assyrian colonies in the region during the Old Assyrian Empire (2025-1750 BC); it was from the Semitic Assyrians of Upper Mesopotamia that the Hittites adopted the cuneiform script. It took some time before the Hittites established themselves following the collapse of the Old Assyrian Empire in the mid-18th century BC, as is clear from some of the texts included here. For several centuries there were separate Hittite groups, usually centered on various cities. But then strong rulers with their center in Hattusas (modern Bođazköy) succeeded in bringing these together and conquering large parts of central Anatolia to establish the Hittite kingdom.
.... Early Period
Hittite chariot, from an Egyptian relief The early history of the Hittite kingdom is known through tablets that may first have been written in the 17th century BC, possibly in Hittite; but survived only as Akkadian (the language of Assyria and Babylonia) copies made in the 14th and 13th centuries BC. These reveal a rivalry within two branches of the royal family up to the Middle Kingdom; a northern branch first based in Zalpa and secondarily Hattusa, and a southern branch based in Kussara (still not found) and the former Assyrian colony of Kanesh (modern Kultepe). These are distinguishable by their names; the northerners retained language isolate Hattian names, and the southerners adopted Indo-European Hittite and Luwian names.
Zalpa first attacked Kanesh under Uhna in 1833 BC.
One set of tablets, known collectively as the Anitta text, begin by telling how Pithana the king of Kussara conquered neighbouring Neša (Kanesh). However, the real subject of these tablets is Pithana's son Anitta (r. 1745 – 1720 BC), who continued where his father left off and conquered several northern cities: including Hattusa, which he cursed, and also Zalpuwa (Zalpa). This was likely propaganda for the southern branch of the royal family, against the northern branch who had fixed on Hattusa as capital. Another set, the Tale of Zalpa, supports Zalpa and exonerates the later Hattusili I from the charge of sacking Kanesh.
Anitta was succeeded by Zuzzu (r. 1720 – 1710 BC); but sometime in 1710–1705 BC, Kanesh was destroyed taking the long-established Assyrian merchant trading system with it. A Kussaran noble family survived to contest the Zalpuwan / Hattusan family, though whether these were of the direct line of Anitta is uncertain.
Meanwhile, the lords of Zalpa lived on. Huzziya I, descendant of a Huzziya of Zalpa, took over Hatti. His son-in-law Labarna I, a southerner (of Hurma) usurped the throne but made sure to adopt Huzziya's grandson Hattusili as his own son and heir. ....
Hattusa ramp The founding of the Hittite Kingdom is attributed to either Labarna I or Hattusili I (the latter might also have had Labarna as a personal name), who conquered the area south and north of Hattusa. Hattusili I campaigned as far as the Semitic Amorite kingdom of Yamkhad in Syria, where he attacked, but did not capture, its capital of Aleppo. Hattusili I did eventually capture Hattusa and was credited for the foundation of the Hittite Empire. According to The Edict of Telepinu, which dates back to the 16th century BC, "Hattusili was king, and his sons, brothers, in-laws, family members, and troops were all united. Wherever he went on campaign he controlled the enemy land with force. He destroyed the lands one after the other, took away their power, and made them the borders of the sea. When he came back from campaign, however, each of his sons went somewhere to a country, and in his hand the great cities prospered. But, when later the princes’ servants became corrupt, they began to devour the properties, conspired constantly against their masters, and began to shed their blood.” This excerpt from the edict is supposed to illustrate the unification, growth, and prosperity of the Hittites under his rule. It also illustrates the corruption of "the princes" who are believed to be his sons. The corruption is dealt with, however, the lack of sources leads to uncertainty with how the corruption was dealt with. On Hattusili I's deathbed his chooses his grandson, Mursuli I, as his heir. Mursili I, conquered that city in a campaign conducted against the Amorites in 1595 BC (middle chronology). Also in 1595 BC, Mursili I (or Murshilish I) conducted a great raid down the Euphrates River, bypassing Assyria and captured Mari and Babylonia, ejecting the Amorite founders of the Babylonian state in the process. However, the Hittite campaigns caused internal dissension which forced a withdrawal of troops to the Hittite homelands. Throughout the remainder of the 16th century BC, the Hittite kings were held to their homelands by dynastic quarrels and warfare with the Hurrians—their neighbours to the east. Also the campaigns into Amurru (modern Syria) and southern Mesopotamia may be responsible for the reintroduction of cuneiform writing into Anatolia, since the Hittite script is quite different from the script of the preceding Assyrian Colonial period.
Mursili continued the conquests of Hattusili I. Mursili's conquests reached southern Mesopotamia and even ransacked Babylon itself in 1531 BC (short chronology). Rather than incorporate Babylonia into Hittite domains, Mursili seems to have instead turned control of Babylonia over to his Kassite allies, who were to rule it for the next four centuries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites
They used the cuneiform script which means they were well aware of the Mesopotamian writings. Sumerian to Babylonian from 3000 BCE to 500 BCE had this script. And the Kassites (who had Indo Aryan names) were rulers over Babylon for 400 years.
They knew Akkadian.
I don't know why there was so little mixing of Israelites/Canaanites (with outsiders though they clearly mixed in with each other - infact they were essentially the same people) after 1700 BCE but the Abrahamic period was one of large scale mixing both in blood and culture (including mythology).
Re: On the issue of showing evidence of mixed ancestry.
The point is that Semitic people are Semitic.
And while I am not really interested in reading long rambling posts that don't make a point I got as far as noticing your misrepresentation of 1 Kings 5. The Sidonians are represented as not being Israelites or subjects of Israel, but subjects of Hiram, the King of Tyre.