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Author Topic:   Israelites match Iran burials (50% DNA from specific time) during the time of Abraham
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 1 of 11 (818405)
08-26-2017 5:38 PM


There has been an amazing discovery and it would be even more dramatic if the DNA clock could be more specific. I suppose the evidence is that about half of the DNA from ancient Israel DNA is from folks who first arrived (or were already close by?) during the Neo/Meso Lithic period of about 10,000 years ago BUT the other 50% is from Iran and it seems to be from the time of Abraham (though it could have been something of a slow trickle over thousands of years I suppose - but no later than 3500 years ago).

The first article I found was this one.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...n-genetics-archaeology

The ancient Iranian burials (Elamite or Indo Aryan? I don't know for sure as I just found this issue) were matched to burials from multiple time periods in a geographic area fundamentalists would consider to be Greater Israel (or Solomon's Israel) plus the current population.

I need help in sorting out the scientific evidence but the journal article from July 27 is very much relevant to everything about origins.

quote:

Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequence

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8


( I decided to do a google search on archaeological discoveries after a great 6 hour conversation last night with an American (he had Palestinian Sunni parents but isn't a believer in Islam at all) about which region had the original ideas that made it into most religions. He started to use his phone to read sites on Zoroastrianism and he was impressed with what he saw. He seems to consider Iran the breadbasket of modern religious views even more so than me - though I was often arguing that many Israelite ideas might have predated certain LATE Zoroastrian texts that he was reading. He started by saying that Islam was just a copy of the Jewish and Christian religion, but now considers the ideas to have come from the east )

I found a ton of articles before finding the original source.

Here is the second I read

quote:

Ancient DNA reveals fate of the mysterious Canaanites

By Lizzie WadeJul. 27, 2017 , 12:00 PM

When the pharaohs ruled Egypt and the ancient Greeks built their first cities, a mysterious people called the Canaanites dominated the Near East. Around 4000 years ago, they built cities across the Levant, which includes present-day Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, and part of Syria. Yet the Canaanites left no surviving written records, leaving researchers to piece together their history from secondhand sources.

One of those sources is the Bible’s Old Testament, which suggests a grisly end for many Canaanites: After the Israelites’ exodus from Egypt, God ordered them to destroy Canaan and its people (though other passages suggest that some Canaanites may have survived). But did that really happen? Archaeological data suggests that Canaanite cities were never destroyed or abandoned. Now, ancient DNA recovered from five Canaanite skeletons suggests that these people survived to contribute their genes to millions of people living today.

The new samples come from Sidon, a coastal city in Lebanon. Marc Haber, a geneticist at the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Hinxton, U.K., extracted enough DNA from the ancient skeletons to sequence the whole genomes of five Canaanite individuals, all around 3700 years old.

Haber’s first mission was to figure out who the Canaanites were, genetically speaking. Ancient Greek sources suggested they had migrated to the Levant from the East. To test that, Haber and colleagues compared the Canaanite genomes to those of other ancient populations in Eurasia. It turned out the Greeks were half right: About 50% of the Canaanites’ genes came from local farmers who settled the Levant about 10,000 years ago. But the other half was linked to an earlier population identified from skeletons found in Iran, the team reports today in The American Journal of Human Genetics. The researchers estimate these Eastern migrants arrived in the Levant and started mixing with locals around 5000 years ago.

This finding fits with other recent studies of the Levant. Iosif Lazaridis, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School in Boston, saw the same mixture of eastern and local ancestry in the genomes of ancient skeletons from Jordan. “It’s nice to see that what we observed wasn’t a fluke of our particular site, but was part of this broader Canaanite population,” Lazaridis says.

Now that Haber had confirmed who the Canaanites were, he set out to find out what happened to them. He compared their genomes to those of 99 living Lebanese people and hundreds of others in genetic databases. Haber found that the present-day Lebanese population is largely descended from the ancient Canaanites, inheriting more than 90% of their genes from this ancient source. The other 7% may have come from migrants from Central Europe who moved to the Levant around 3000 years ago.

So does the new study show that there was no war between the Israelites and the Canaanites? Not necessarily, says Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute geneticist Chris Tyler-Smith, who worked with Haber. Genes don’t always track conflict. “You can have genetically similar or indistinguishable populations that are culturally very different and don’t get on with one another at all,” Tyler-Smith says. This might have been the case with the Israelites and the Canaanites—similar genes, but sworn enemies.

“If those populations conquer each other, it probably wouldn’t leave traces that we could easily pick up [with ancient DNA],” agrees Johannes Krause, a geneticist at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, who wasn’t involved in the current work. Perhaps there was a Biblical war that ancient DNA simply cannot see.

http://www.sciencemag.org/...l-account-mysterious-canaanites


The 3000 BCE date of arrival could be as late as 1500 BCE.

quote:

This Canaanite-related ancestry derived from mixture between local Neolithic populations and eastern migrants genetically related to Chalcolithic Iranians. We estimate, using linkage-disequilibrium decay patterns, that admixture occurred 6,600–3,550 years ago, coinciding with recorded massive population movements in Mesopotamia during the mid-Holocene. We show that present-day Lebanese derive most of their ancestry from a Canaanite-related population, which therefore implies substantial genetic continuity in the Levant since at least the Bronze Age. In addition, we find Eurasian ancestry in the Lebanese not present in Bronze Age or earlier Levantines. We estimate that this Eurasian ancestry arrived in the Levant around 3,750–2,170 years ago during a period of successive conquests by distant populations.

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8


The range is from 4600 BCE to 1550 BCE for an Iranian Abraham to have migrated with the waves. (I consider the latest possible dates to be the most likely considering the Hurrian influx from that time. )

The 1750 BCE to 170 BCE migrations are secondary.

There is a circa 1350 BCE treaty between the Hittites and a people with Indo-Aryan gods (what we would now call Hindu gods). These people made up a ruling class in Egypt (they brought the horse to Egypt as they were among the Hyksos and other Canaanites). The Jerusalem that David took was ruled by these people. These people have names all over the Egyptian and Palestinian texts from the 500+ year period before the time of the Israelite monarchy.

quote:

Mitanni-Aryan - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni-Aryan

Some theonyms, proper names and other terminology of the Mitanni are considered to form (part of) an Indo-Aryan superstrate, suggesting that an Indo-Aryan elite imposed itself over the Hurrian population in the course of the Indo-Aryan expansion. In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni (between Suppiluliuma and ...
‎Attested words and ... · ‎Names of people · ‎Names of gods · ‎Horse training

Mitanni - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni

Mitanni also called Hanigalbat in Assyrian or Naharin in Egyptian texts, was a Hurrian-speaking state in northern Syria and southeast Anatolia from c. 1500–1300 BC. Mitanni came to be a regional power after the Hittite destruction of Amorite ... Hittite annals mention a people called Hurri (Ḫu-ur-ri), located in northeastern ...
‎Name · ‎People · ‎History · ‎Indo-Aryan superstrate

Suppiluliuma (Hittite) -Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty - Zoroastrian Heritage

www.heritageinstitute.com/...piluliuma_shattiwaza_treaty.htm

A Obv. 1-16: When My Majesty, Suppiluliuma, Great King, Hero, King of Hatti, Beloved of the Storm God, and Artatama, king of the land of Hurri, made a treaty ...

Mitanni and Kurdistan - Zoroastrian Heritage

www.heritageinstitute.com/...astrianism/ranghaya/mitanni.htm

The Hittites used the Hurrian language extensively in their inscriptions. ... In the treaty, the Hittite King Suppiluliuma agreed to assist Shattiwaza gain the Mitanni ...
‎Location · ‎Wassukanni / Washukanni ... · ‎Mitanni Dynasty · ‎Arta

Mitanni - Ancient History Encyclopedia

www.ancient.eu/Mitanni/

To the east the Mitanni had good relations with the Hurrian-speaking Kassites whose ... Later Egyptian dynasties entered into pacts and treaties with Mitanni and the ... Egypt backed Tushratta in this conflict while the Hittite king Suppiluliuma I ...

Kingdom of Mitanni aristocracy shows Indo-Aryan roots

cof.quantumfuturegroup.org/events/5396

Jan 17, 2016 - However, with the ascent of the Hittite empire, Mitanni and Egypt made an ... Their sphere of influence is shown in Hurrian place names, personal .... In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni, the deities Mitra, Varuna, ...

Ancient Indians in Mitanni. Excerpts from Suppiluliuma (Hittite ...

bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/2017/06/ancient-indians-in-mitanni-excerpts.html

Jul 1, 2017 - Suppiluliuma (Hittite) -Shattiwaza (Mitanni) Treaty Excerpts ... king of the land of Hurri, made a treaty with one another, at that time, Tushratta, ...

Were the Aryan who ruled the Mitanni the same as those of India ...

www.eupedia.com › ... › Population Genetics › DNA Testing & General Genetics

Jan 19, 2011 - 68 posts - ‎18 authors
I think that the Mitanni may have also had a Hurrian component. ... In a treaty between the Hittites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) and the ...

Journal of Indo-European Studies. 2010. About the Mitanni Aryan gods.

www.academia.edu/...-European_Studies._2010._About_the_Mitan...

The Mitanni Aryan deities are listed twice: in the Mitanni-Ãatti treaty (KBo I 3) and .... which seems quite extra-ordinary among Hittite and Hurrian scribes or ruling ...

Were the Mitanni Indo-Aryan or West Irano-Aryans - History Forum ...

www.allempires.com › ... › Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran

Mar 22, 2013 - 20 posts - ‎7 authors
For starters we have a treaty between the Mitanni and the Hittites which ... the majority of Mitanni deities were decidedly Hurrian and Semitic, ...


http://cof.quantumfuturegroup.org/events/5396

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.com/...-mitanni-excerpts.html

The above links have timelines and maps.

Here is the google link

https://www.google.com/search?q=mitanni+hittite+hurrian+t...

This should be seen as a smoking gun for the origin of the Amorite population which became what we know as West Semitic (ie Abraham and the Israelites). It should tell us that the Semitic language was taken over by Indo Iranians in Mesopotamia. Perhaps it happened over a period from 3000 BCE till 2000 BCE and the westward migrations happened during that time and after.

Were the Sumerians part of this Elamite group?

How did the Greek mythology get influenced?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added "[url=" code to two links to make them clickable. Before, the links looked proper but for some reason the clickable portion of the link was a truncated version of the entire link.]" code to two links to make them clickable. Before, the links looked proper but for some reason the clickable portion of the link was a truncated version of the entire link.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Pressie, posted 08-28-2017 8:48 AM LamarkNewAge has responded
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2017 8:50 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Admin
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Message 2 of 11 (818407)
08-28-2017 8:26 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Israelites match Iran burials (50% DNA from specific time) during the time of Abraham thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Pressie
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Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
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Message 3 of 11 (818412)
08-28-2017 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
08-26-2017 5:38 PM


So, the Israelites were half Persian?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-26-2017 5:38 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

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PaulK
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Message 4 of 11 (818414)
08-28-2017 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
08-26-2017 5:38 PM


Please use the URL tag - the link to Cell doesn't work in my browser.

Much of the reporting around this find seems to be mistaken. Sidon wasn't conquered by the Israelites, so we'd expect the people there to be Canaanite (Phoenician). The modern population might be expected to have mixes from a lot of sources, but it's not really that surprising to see that the genes of the Iron Age inhabitants are still dominant.

And there's no real connection to the - possibly mythical - Abraham either. Abraham was supposed to have come from Ur in Mesopotamia (The South of modern Iraq) and should have been of Semitic ethnicity.

So, slightly interesting but it's being stretched beyond anything it really connects to.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
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Message 5 of 11 (818449)
08-28-2017 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
08-28-2017 8:50 AM


(2) links that shouldn't have need fixing fixed
Please use the URL tag - the link to Cell doesn't work in my browser.

I changed two links such that they are now clickable to get to page.

This:
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

Was changed to this:
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

Use "peek" to see the difference.

The first version should have worked fine, but doesn't.

I will report this to Percy - Maybe there is a forum software fix needed.

Adminnemooseus


This message is a reply to:
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Message 6 of 11 (818452)
08-28-2017 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Adminnemooseus
08-28-2017 4:27 PM


Re: (2) links that shouldn't have need fixing fixed
The one that doesn't work is the implicit form of links. It triggers off strings that begin with "http://" or "https://" or "ftp://" or "www" This might be fixable, I'm not sure, I'll have to think about it. Actually, of course it's fixable, I just don't know how hard it would be or whether there might be undesirable side effects.

The link gets truncated at the open parenthesis, and this is because parentheses are not included as legal characters for implicit links. I naturally don't remember how I chose the legal characters around 15 years ago when I wrote version 1 of the software, but I suspect that I thought links might be included within parentheses, like this, and you wouldn't want that close parenthesis included as part of the link:

(http://www.evcforum.net)

But like I said, this might be fixable. I could assume that open and close parentheses always occur in pairs, which would certainly address your example.

For reference, the characters that are presently excluded from implicit links are:

<space>[]()<>

--Percy


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 7 of 11 (820158)
09-16-2017 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Pressie
08-28-2017 8:48 AM


Persians in 4600-1550 BCE.
quote:

So, the Israelites were half Persian?

The Hindu think it is an article of faith that the Punjab (modern Pakistan) civilizations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro from 3000 BCE were Indo Aryan peoples.

Historians place the arrival around (though it depends on the exact region of Iran - north or south. In India, the northern Afghanistan region is relevant I think)1500 BCE.

The arrival of Persians would be around 1500 BCE - according to historians.

The area of southern Iran called Elam (in the New Testament Acts 2 text, Elam is the name of ancient Susa though I think Elamites were long gone as an axisting language group and perhaps even a people) is where there was a Semitic/Sumerian related culture though the inscriptions can't be read.

My idea has to do with a (very?) small group of Indo Aryan speaking people arriving in Iran and mixing with the darker skinned natives (Elamites in Iran and Harappan folk in India or modern day Pakistan), but the exact language I can't claim to know, especially if the earlier DNA clock dates are accepted.

I independently reached the conclusion that the Sumerians, Elamites and Harappans of 5000 years ago were the same people. (not that it was much more than a guess about an issue that I lack the bulk of needed research on)

I have read good academic works (but lost the title) that reached the same conclusion.

Here is a google link that might help those with interest.

https://www.google.com/search?q=essential+hindu+history+a...

I'm not sure how mixed the people would have been and exactly how the linguistic lines related to original inhabitants (in religion and race).

Here is the standard view of arrival.

quote:

RELIGIONS OF THE WORLD
FOURTH EDITION
Lewis M. Hopfe
1988
p.84

The Aryans are believed to have been the people who first tamed horses on a wide scale and used them to pull war chariots. They were related to the Hyksos people who INVADED Egypt in the second millennium B.C. and ruled it for two hundred years. ...The Aryans who did not migrate into India became the founders of Zoroastrianism. There are many similarities between the religion revealed in the Indian Vedic literature and the Gathas of Zoroastrianism. These same people later founded the Persian Empire, which ruled the Middle East from the sixth to the fourth centuries B.C.
....
During the period between 1750 and 1200 B.C. the Aryans came in migratory waves into the Indus valley


Caps added by me in the "invaded" word.

The ethnic arrival issue is controversial.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 8 of 11 (820160)
09-16-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
08-28-2017 8:50 AM


quote:

Much of the reporting around this find seems to be mistaken. Sidon wasn't conquered by the Israelites, so we'd expect the people there to be Canaanite (Phoenician). The modern population might be expected to have mixes from a lot of sources, but it's not really that surprising to see that the genes of the Iron Age inhabitants are still dominant.

I was shocked to see so little change from the last 3700 years (the Iron Age started after 1200 BCE or 3200 years ago). Disturbed actually.

And the research includes sites from (what is now) modern day Israel ( Palestine) and Jordan, with DNA (I need to re read it though as I haven't been on the computer since I quickly posted the thread).

quote:

And there's no real connection to the - possibly mythical - Abraham either. Abraham was supposed to have come from Ur in Mesopotamia (The South of modern Iraq) and should have been of Semitic ethnicity.

So, slightly interesting but it's being stretched beyond anything it really connects to.


The Babylonians were actually West Semites who took the East Semitic Akkadian language.
Hammurabi was actually from the same ethnicity as the later Hebrews (Amorite or West Semitic). And he knew it

The West Semitic peoples seem to have conquered the Sumerian 3rd Dynasty of Ur.

The Amorites were already present in certain numbers.

There were a ton of East Semites already there as the Sargon The Great Empire was East Semitic.

There were already Semites (even west) plus Indo Aryan peoples in the 3rd millennium.

Why couldn't Indo Aryans have mixed in with Amorites 4000 years ago in Mesopotamia?

We know that the Philistines (in Palestine) were no longer eating pork after 1000 BCE plus they practiced circumcision as well 200 years after their arrival. Their language was Canaanite by then too.

That is one Indo Aryan group that essentially became Canaanite (though the actual Aegean elite might have always been a small component of the overall population even in 'Philistine" cities) though they were aware of the European origins.

(EDIT the Hurrians arrived before 1500 BCE according to archaeological discoveries in Palestinian sites)

The Hurrians that came to Palestine and Egypt became Semitic speakers.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 9 of 11 (820161)
09-16-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
08-28-2017 8:50 AM


quote:

And there's no real connection to the - possibly mythical - Abraham either. Abraham was supposed to have come from Ur in Mesopotamia (The South of modern Iraq) and should have been of Semitic ethnicity.

Here is my point earlier.

The direct successors to the Sumerians of Ur were Semites. West Semitic peoples (called the Amuru or Amorites) who were already slowly trickling in but adopting a different language - Akkadian and Sumerian.

A large group of people can migrate in and take a different language.

Look at France from around the 4th 5th century.

Like the Franks taking Latin but keeping their ethnic heritage otherwise.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hammurabi+amorite+west+se...

quote:

Amorite - Ancient History Encyclopedia

www.ancient.eu/amorite/

The Amorites were a Semitic people who seem to have emerged from western ... best known for their kingdom of Babylonia under the Amorite king Hammurabi.

From the Tower of Babel to the Laws of Hammurabi - Springer Link

link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/978-3-319-01937-6_7.pdf

7 From the Tower of Babel to the Laws of Hammurabi gives an ..... for another society of western Semites known as Amorites, or in Sumerian Mar-to or Mura-tu ...

Babylon | Western Civilization

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/...history/chapter/babylon

Describe key characteristics of the Babylonian Empire under Hammurabi ... Conflicts between the Amorites (Western Semitic nomads) and the Assyrians ...

Amorites - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorites

The Amorites were an ancient Semitic-speaking people from Syria who also occupied large ... In the earliest Sumerian texts, all western lands beyond the Euphrates, including the ... 2050 – 1750 BC) became the most powerful entity in Mesopotamia immediately preceding the rise of the Amorite king Hammurabi of Babylon.

Gods and Goddesses - British Museum Mesopotamia

www.mesopotamia.co.uk/...resources/background/bg02/home.html

Amorites. Semitic-speaking nomadic pastoralists. By 2000 B.C. these tribes ... the most famous is that of Babylon with its sixth king Hammurabi (1792-1750 B.C.). ... People who entered western Iran in the 2nd millennium B.C. The Medes, allied ...

Peoples of the Bible: The legend of the Amorites - Archaeology ...

www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-1.769235?v...

Feb 6, 2017 - Amorites: A people descended from Emer, the fourth son of Canaan, according ... Nor can we be sure that the increasing prominence of West Semitic names is .... Hammurabi's Code is essentially a collection of decisions and ...

Amorites - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Amorites

The bottom portion of the stele contains the text of the Code of Hammurabi. ... refers to a Semitic people who first occupied the country west of the Euphrates from ...

The Fierce Amorites and the First King of the Babylonian Empire ...

www.ancient-origins.net/...rst-king-babylonian-empire-003269

Jun 21, 2015 - Their most noted king, Hammurabi, was the first king of the Babylon Empire. ... Since their language shows northwest Semitic forms, words and .... located on the west bank of the Euphrates River in what was once northern.

Amurru, the Home of the Northern Semites by A. T. Clay - Jstor

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3141556
was an amalgamation of what was once Amorite, or west Semitic, and the. Sumerian ... an early Babylonian dynasty-some two centuries before Hammurabi-.

King Hammurabi of Babylon: A Biography

https://books.google.com/books?isbn=047069534X

Marc Van De Mieroop - 2008 - ýHistory
Abi-eshuh: the second successor of Hammurabi as king of Babylon, who ruled from 1711 to ... Amorite: a west Semitic language spoken by many inhabitants of ...



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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 10 of 11 (820162)
09-16-2017 5:53 PM


Population growth numbers from 2000 to 1500 BCE in Palestine.
I need to look harder but I seem to recall that there was an increase in population after 2000 BCE.

https://www.google.com/search?q=israel+finkelstein++middl...

The population dropped severely after the Early Bronze Age ended then increased during the Middle Bronze Age.

That might account for the 50% Iranian blood mix.


    
PaulK
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Posts: 13125
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Member Rating: 2.8


Message 11 of 11 (820183)
09-17-2017 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by LamarkNewAge
09-16-2017 5:23 PM


You may be surprised at so little change, but it is pretty normal.

And you miss the point about Abraham. The point is not that Semites couldn't come from the region of Ur, just that they would not show Iranian ancestry.


This message is a reply to:
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