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Author | Topic: Decline And Fall Of The American Empire | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Do you understand that digging resources out of the ground requires labour? I do, but the resources already have value before they're dug out of the ground. Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor. If labor is the only source of value, then who's labor causes the value that naturally occurs in the resources? From Message 87:
Show me a capitalist who says he doesn't "work hard' for his money. Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor. Also, not all hard work is labor, imho.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Really? Rebuilding somebody's home is a bad thing? Paying somebody to work is a bad thing? Really? Your own social security is more important? Really? Yes...if the money comes out of social security trust funds simply to pay mass labor. (And your contempt for "mass labor" is showing through again.)
Phat writes:
If your own future is so bloody important, you should be trying to untie it.
For the vanishing middle class, our future is tied up in "future obligations" while current obligations rob us of what we collectively saved. Phat writes:
You're confusing your metaphors. The rising tide argument doesn't demolish anything. It allows the poorest members of society to have decent housing.
The whole problem with the rising tide argument is that it demolishes all of the houses built above water level.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Where does the 100 bucks you gained come from? At some point, doesn't somebody work for it, even if you don't?
Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor. New cat's Eye writes:
Say I walk into a bank with a gun and walk out with 100 bucks. I just gained 100 bucks with no labour. Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor. But didn't somebody work for that 100 bucks?
New Cat's Eye writes:
And not all water is wet, I suppose. If you define it like that, you can come up with any conclusion you want.
Also, not all hard work is labor, imho.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Except for natural resources - those things are the shit. There are a few other things that are roughly equivalent. Some man-made things have a value that appreciates over time. Wine stored in a dark cellar, or a 67 Mustang put away and never driven. The value of your house might increase because some capitalist wants to put a cell phone tower smack dab in your living room. The added value in each of those cases is no more labor-based than are the trees growing on your land that somebody wants. Those things are increases simply because other humans want or need for your objects increases. Value of a painting after the artist dies, or because his other works were destroyed in a museum fire.
but value, itself, is a human creation. It requires people, and at the very bottom somebody has to make the value. Of course, but not all such creations are through labor. What happens when factories become fully automated... Could we agree that the value then is created primarily without labor? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
The "value" is what the buyer is willing to pay - and his ability to pay is based on labour.
Those things are increases simply because other humans want or need for your objects increases.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Where does the 100 bucks you gained come from? At some point, doesn't somebody work for it, even if you don't? Your claim is not that all bucks come from labor. It is that all value comes from labor. It's not true. If labor is the only source of value, then who's labor causes the value that naturally occurs in the resources?
If you define it like that, I'm still waiting for your definition of labor.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The "value" is what the buyer is willing to pay - and his ability to pay is based on labour. Sometimes, Ringo. Not always. Not all money is made by expending labor. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Value is measured in bucks. If bucks come from labour then value comes from labour.
Your claim is not that all bucks come from labor. It is that all value comes from labor. New Cat's Eye writes:
You haven't established that natural resources have any "value' beyond what can be added by labor.
If labor is the only source of value, then who's labor causes the value that naturally occurs in the resources? New Cat's Eye writes:
In Message 84 you said, "...you could define labor so broadly as to be like "human activity" or something...." and in Message 91 you said, "...not all hard work is labor...." I'm still waiting for your definition of labor. I lean more toward the first one. Maybe you can give some examples of human activity that can't be called labour. I'd also be interested in your idea of the difference between work and labour. I might go so far as to say that even easy work is labour.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Then give some examples. When is something worth more than what the buyer is willing or able to pay?
Sometimes, Ringo. Not always. Not all money is made by expending labor.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You haven't established that natural resources have any "value' beyond what can be added by labor. Someone paid me for the rights to harvest the trees from my property. Those trees have value before anybody has ever touched them, and I made money off them without doing anything. I just had to own the land. Who's labor do I owe the value of the rights to those trees to? Nobody planted them, they were just there when I bought the place. Nobody has chopped them down yet, they just paid for the rights to. But I still made money through no labor of my own.
Maybe you can give some examples of human activity that can't be called labour. Maybe you could define the terms you're using instead of making people guess and check... Owning the business requires human activity but they are typically excluded from the labor class.Making sales deals on the fruits of the labor is also typically exluded from the labor class. The stock brokers trying to sell shares in the company are typically excluded from the labor class. The Accounting and Human Resources Department are sometimes exluded and sometimes included. The context that you entered the discussion was:
quote: From wiki:
quote: So in that context, when you say all value comes from labor, its pretty ambiguous what you mean. At face value it is wrong. But you won't explain what you meant.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
When is something worth more than what the buyer is willing or able to pay? 1) Things are often worth more than the buyer is able to pay. In that case, he does not end up purchasing them. That does not prevent the putative from recognizing the value is beyond is ability to pay. But that is not even the issue here. The ultimate buyer still does not have to pay using labor. He can earn money in transactions that do not involve labor. 2) I've given examples, and you've given answers similar to this one that do not get to the point. 3) Often things have value in addition to the labor created value. Often that additional value can be converted to cash in a transaction that does not involve labor. For example, I can extract money from my house by borrowing more than its appreciated value, investing the funds in some passive income like buying wine to age. In the end, I can settle up and have additional funds with no expenditure of labor. It can very well be that everyone that I exchange with earned their money in similar, non-labor, ways Now if you want to call every act of endeavor labor, then you are just equivocating about the definition of labor. Yes, I agree that if there were no humans there is no value. I don't agree that all value comes from labor. Some value can be created merely by increases scarcity or increased demand. The question of how I monetize that value is a separate issue. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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New Cat's Eye writes
Someone paid me for the rights to harvest the trees from my property. Those trees have value before anybody has ever touched them, and I made money off them without doing anything. I just had to own the land. Who's labor do I owe the value of the rights to those trees to? Nobody planted them, they were just there when I bought the place. Nobody has chopped them down yet, they just paid for the rights to. But I still made money through no labor of my own. But just how did you acquire the property? By your own labor you were able to buy the property. Or by your parents' or grandparents', etc., labors done earlier.- xongsmith, 5.7d
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But just how did you acquire the property? By your own labor you were able to buy the property. Sure, the original 100 bucks came from the value of my labor. But now I have an extra hundred bucks that came from no labor at all. Dude hasn't even paid me to get the trees yet, he just bought the rights to the timber. So there's actually two labor-less values here: the trees themselves, and the rights to the timber. The trees naturally exist and have value - no labor needed. I acquire the right to the value of the trees by purchasing the property - no labor needed. Then I sell the rights and make money without labor. Then the guy pays me to come and get them and I get more money without labor. Or here's another one: I bought some silver bullion years ago when the price was low. The price has sense gone up. If I sell that silver bullion at a profit, where is the labor that this extra value that the silver has came from? I haven't done shit, it's been sitting in a safe. Before you go on about the labor needed for the money that I'm selling the silver for - I'm not talking about the value of that money, I'm talking about the value of the silver, itself.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The trees naturally exist and have value - no labor needed. Value is defined in human terms of need. The trees have value as flooring or other wood by-products. Labor is involved in creating that added hundred dollars. The property has value as a place to live or to exploit or to simply enjoy. You sold your trees so it appears you don't mind losing them. I acquire the right to the value of the trees by purchasing the property - no labor needed. The Indians never could understand how the palefaces attached a monetary value to land, rivers, and trees. If there were a sudden scarcity of wood and you yourself needed it, you may have to pay someone else many times what you made with your deal. Value always involves labor in one way or another. Art is priceless simply because no agreeable value can be found.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Art is priceless simply because no agreeable value can be found. Pieces of art change hands for money quite often Phat. Apparently, two or more people can agree on a value for a piece of art. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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