|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Christianity... Destiny | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Porkncheese Member (Idle past 297 days) Posts: 198 From: Australia Joined: |
I tried a search for this but not much came up.
I recently asked about the original sin and sin in general. I got some replies from Phat and Faith and some others that were good. Those explanations helped me understand it better. So I'm hoping to get some perspective on destiny.God knows what's going to happen to me tomorrow. He knows when your going to sin, when you'll die, he knows the future. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I remember it. God tells Moses basically everything about his future. Very detailed as I remember. A good example is when Judas turns Jesus over to the Roman cops for money and later hangs himself out of guilt. Jesus knew he was going to do that all along.He betrays Jesus and commits suicide. That equals hell for Judas. But poor Judas didn't even have a choice did he? Adam and Eve. God knew they were going to eat the apple. Doesn't that make the original sin kind of pointless? If our lives are already pre determined then what's the point of going through the motions?What drives people to study like I am and try follow a career? Was i already wired up to do this? Their some tough questions I think but I'll add another topic.Were there is good there is evil. Satan. Lcifer. Are they the same entity? Where is Satan? How much power has he got? How is he influencing earth and the people? Is he responsible for these stupid left wing students with their safe spaces and cry closets?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPhat Inactive Member |
You have a lot of questions in this one topic starter and have not really indicated which one you wish to primarily focus on.
You can always bring the secondary questions up later in the topic if you wish to address them, but which one do you want to start out with? Before you answer---and before I promote anything, you may consider asking questions in this related topic:
Free will vs Omniscience This one gets deep! I'm rereading it now! Let me know if you wish to still open a topic, but focus it on one main idea. Otherwise, feel free to post a reply in the topic that I linked you to.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Porkncheese Member (Idle past 297 days) Posts: 198 From: Australia Joined: |
Sorry my original thought was on free will and destiny.
That link is great. It has the various opinions I was looking for. I've been thinking a lot recently about morality.It would be great if u could suggest some threads that cover this. Cheers
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPhat Inactive Member |
I think I have one for you. One of my favorite conversationalists (and foils) is our member, Ringo. He always manages to cleverly yet accurately express a contrarian yet very logical argument that he uses in this thread to argue with a fundamentalist member, Dawn Bertot. Follow the conversation here:
EvC Forum: Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals. Also check out
Morality without god Maximising Freedom Is The Goal Of Morality
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Porkncheese Member (Idle past 297 days) Posts: 198 From: Australia Joined: |
Interesting but it is all religion vs science and my agnostic questions never seem to get answered. I'm not after debate. Just basically asking people to try change my mind or try tip the scales.
I recently asked for a theological explanations of original sin, general sin, Jesus and destiny And now to both atheists and theists I will ask them to observe and examine the social climate we are in today.It might not be for a while cos im busy atm but I'll get something down and run it through here first. Also fill me in with references and visuals cos I want to use some for this next topic without being screwed around. People would demand I show references then reject them. They would use youtube clips and then reject my stuff cos it was "off the internet" or label me "creationist" which only made the atheist argument look shallow. Wat can I use and wat can't I use? Edited by Porkncheese, : Tip the scales Edited by Porkncheese, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Can I please have a theological explanation to destiny without the religion vs science boxing gloves. I'm agnostic remember. OK thats what I wanted.God knows the future right? So Judas turns Jesus into the Roman's for gold and later hangs himself out of guilt. This would send a man to hell. But Jesus himself knew what Judas was going to do. Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control. The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work when God already has it written in stone? It's a killer for religion. Makes me feel uselessLets roll. Edited by AdminPhat, : finishing Topic Starter for member
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread copied here from the Christianity... Destiny thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
P&C writes: Fair enough. Before we start, what is it that frustrates you in regards to the " religion vs science boxing gloves"? You claim to be agnostic...which means that you dont yet know or cant know but that out of respect for your family and your upbringing you cling to the idea that God exists. Which is fine. I do also. I suppose that a fair question to start this out is this: So I'm hoping to get some perspective on destiny."Why bother with going through the motions in life if our destiny is already written in stone?" My opinion is that we become the decisions that we make. Judas may have been foreknown to be the betrayer, but he chose to do the action. In my belief it is irrelevant if God foreknew what Judas would do. God no more created that destiny than did reality. I believe that Judas created his own destiny through his actions. Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control. Why does foreknowledge of our actions place them out of our control? It seems that what critics want is actions that God cant know (assuming God exists) they want to be able to freely choose something without having it known in advance. For me personally, I see it as not a problem. I could care less what God knows I will someday do. I wake up each day and live my life and make my choices. It is irrelevant whether I am actually playing out a part and "unable to do otherwise". From my perspective, I'm just living life.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Pork & Cheese writes: Why feel useless? Live La Vida Loca! Don't trip on religion so much...I never did until I was about 30, and only because I had an experience at a charismatic church that intrigued my curiosity. Yes, I fell for the kool-aid early on, but tossed the organized aspect of religion and kept my basic belief in communion with God through Jesus. As for Adam & Eve, I don't know and don't really care. The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work when God already has it written in stone? It's a killer for religion. Makes me feel uselessChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
Porkncheese writes: God knows the future right?So Judas turns Jesus into the Roman's for gold and later hangs himself out of guilt. This would send a man to hell. But Jesus himself knew what Judas was going to do. Doesn't seem fair that Judas goes to hell for something that's out of his control. The other example I will use is Adam and Eve. How does that work wen God already has it written in stone. I think your issues are right... but it depends on who "writes it in stone." That is... if God creates everyone, knowing full well what they will do when created... then God is writing it in stone.However, if God creates everyone, but doesn't know what anyone will do. And then people write their own decisions in stone... then God looks into the future after His creation event at the stone-writing... well, I don't see a problem with that. Directly applicable to your example: If God created Judas and knew Judas was going to do that, then it's a problem for religion.If God created Judas, didn't know Judas was going to do that... then Jesus looks into the future (that Judas wrote)... and is sad for Judas' decision... then it's not a problem for religion. The only issue is... when it's "not a problem" for religion, that's only in regards to Free Will. It then creates a problem of God "knowing everything" because God would not have known what Judas was going to do at some point before Judas' creation. I don't see an issue with that at all... but certain religious-types might. Depends on how tied their religion is to the idea that God must know all things at all times. Edited by Stile, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I still don't understand why specifically that foreknowledge is a problem. Let's assume that Jesus is eternal past, present, and future. Thus God(Jesus, in this example) is present at every moment that a human makes a decision. This does not mean that God creates the decision...He is only aware of it. The critic would say that its a problem in that the subject must choose only that destiny...but I say this argument holds no water since at the moment that the choice was made, the subject didn't choose any other way anyhow.
So explain why ultimate foreknowledge is a problem?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Phat writes: So explain why ultimate foreknowledge is a problem? One reason is that if a reasonable person knows someone is about to do something wrong, they stop them don't they? Again, why is your god less moral than your father? Another reason is why on earth would he do it anyway? He knows the answer, why run the experiment if you know the outcome? If all he wants to do is fill up heaven, the very least he should do is not run the experiment at all and put the winners directly into heaven.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Porkncheese Member (Idle past 297 days) Posts: 198 From: Australia Joined: |
I think Stile explained it well and on the other hand I have the same thoughts that Tangle expressed as well. I don't think anyone can fully understand the bible
To phats question as to why I don't like the science vs religion war.Its because I don't believe religion should be influencing science at all Edited by Porkncheese, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
|
porkncheese writes: Yes, we sure can. Bronze age goat herders claiming something. That's it. ...I don't think anyone can fully understand the bible... Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Son of Man Junior Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 26 From: Ireland Joined: |
there are two paths in life fate and destiny, if you choose to drive a car recklessly then crash and die you met your fate. I believe that if you make the right choices you will meet your destiny i.e. you will live a long complete life and meet a peaceful death
as for Adam and EveI see this story as two serpents not only because it mentions serpents several times, but also that the stories within are symbolic in their reference, also if Adam was the AtomAnd Eve was the Electron taken from the Atom who gave birth to Cain the Cation (cathode) and Abel the Anion (anode) Abel was replaced by Seth or static then I believe you have a cure for snake bites? Edited by Son of Man, : male to make and added toothe first will be the last and the last will be the first.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024