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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What's so bad about a world without earthquakes, tsunamis, forest fires, etc.? What's so bad about a world in which a man who is about to do a mass shooting is struck by lightning? I could live with a God who exerted that kind of useful control. True, it does sound attractive. And it does place God on the stand. He now must explain why He does not intervene as we suggest He should. Will The Real God Please Explain Himself?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And to you, free will means having compleeeeeeete freedom to choose milk chocolate or dark chocolate or white chocolate - and you ignore the threat that you'll be tortured eternally for choosing vanilla.
To you, free will means being freely out from under the control of the overlord's destiny. Phat writes:
Why should there be any "preconditions of destiny"? In other words, you should have the right to choose whatever you want without being bound by the preconditions of destiny.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I predict that he won't. But apologists will continue with their clumsy attempts. Will The Real God Please Explain Himself?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why should there be any "preconditions of destiny"? It sounds autocratic to suggest that God foreknows all destiny. If we substitute the word "reality" for God, does it sound as bad to suggest that reality "knows" all destiny? Perhaps you think that hell is an unnecessary precondition. Which gives ringo compleeeeeat freedom to do whatever his pea-picking soul desires. Reality itself may impose preconditions on your carnal fest. Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road... a road that we who are bounded by time cannot see.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
1.62 writes: Or god is operating at the speed of light and has infinite mass. This would mean time as we know it does not exist for god.god would be omnipotent and omniscient in a sense and yet choose to remain blinded for reasons humanity may not understand.[ Well that makes no sense to me, nor is it biblical so I'm going to forget that it ever happened. The teaching is tha god created us knowing full well what he was doing, and before watching an unusually hallucinogenic episode of Star Trek.
You call it evil I get that but perhaps that is the price to be paid for our existence. I would rather there be something than nothing otherwise I could not enjoy my buttered sour dough bread. You might but the child being tortured by a paedophilic psychopath might have a different view. And in any case, you're accepting that god is ok about paedophic psychopaths.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The whole idea of "destiny" is an excuse more than anything else.
If we substitute the word "reality" for God, does it sound as bad to suggest that reality "knows" all destiny? Phat writes:
Of course it's unnecessary.
Perhaps you think that hell is an unnecessary precondition. Phat writes:
Reality doesn't impose preconditions. It imposes consequences.
Reality itself may impose preconditions on your carnal fest. Phat writes:
Then let the consequences fall where they may - but we don't need a God to impose additional arbitrary consequences of His own. Perhaps choosing vanilla has unforeseen consequences down the road... And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Who cares what God could know? We do. If god know that he's creating suffering and evil, he's evil, if he doesn't then he's not omnicient and therefore not god, and he's then merely reckless as to his actions.
To put it another way, let's personify reality. Reality knows what I will do tomorrow. Tosh. Reality has no agency.
Does that mean I am incapable of doing otherwise? See how silly it all sounds? We have free will within the parameters of reality. Thus, your argument has no steam in saying that we don't have free will. Well you've missed my point by a million miles. Re-read what I said. I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
So basically, believers trust that God exists and that it is our responsibility to tow the line...whereas you doubt that God exists but that IF He does, He had better get off His almighty arse and do His job.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I said that the existence of free will demonstrates that god is evil or reckless or, in fact, not god. And I fail to see how there is even a possibility that free will would make a God necessarily evil. Unless, as you may charge, He is failing to do His job.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence. What? You mean a weather forecast? Tide tables? Planetary movements? Are you just going to hope that Mars is where you want it to be when you launch your rocket? Or do you mean that atheists don't hope for a better life for their daughters or catch a 20lb salmon or get that pay rise? Really Phat, stop projecting, put your prejudices away and start understanding that atheists are fully human too.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Belief isn't "daring". It should be nothing more than a backup for when there is no evidence. But more often than not, it's just wishful thinking.
and atheists will continue to use evidence to predict an uncertain future. God forbid they ever dare believe anything without evidence. Phat writes:
It makes more sense to put your hope in something real. Why have hope? Wait for the evidence.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Painting someone with different views than yours as a torturing pedo sympathizer brush is pretty crappy.
Why "that" would come to mind rather than any other zillions of unsavory things is beyond me and probably says more about your state of mind than mine methinks. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
1.62 writes: Painting someone with different views than yours as a torturing pedo sympathizer brush is pretty crappy.Why "that" would come to mind rather than any other zillions of unsavory things is beyond me and probably says more about your state of mind than mine methinks. Am I supposed to not notice that you haven't attempted to answer the point being made? If you missed it, it's nothing new, it's basically why does god inflict/allow suffering on his creation?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1533 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Touche', I can not reconcile evil in the face of a benevolent, omnipotent god.
Im just glad we can have this conversation rather than not exist at all. Since things do exist it seems everything affects everything.The lion is not evil when it consumes a zebra. When some mentally deranged person commits a heinous crime against another person it is evil but how can one negate a murderer's free will to kill? Ether there is free will for evil and good alike or there is none. Evil may be the price we pay for our freewill. I do not know. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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