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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 631 of 636 (843188)
11-14-2018 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by 1.61803
11-14-2018 9:03 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:

Im just glad we can have this conversation rather than not exist at all.

That sounds like a false choice to me - no-existence or evil and suffering. The all powerful god is apparently incapable of creating a peaceful creation. Except heaven of course....now there's an idea.

Since things do exist it seems everything affects everything.
The lion is not evil when it consumes a zebra.

And there's another evil - why invent carnivores?

When some mentally deranged person commits a heinous crime against another person it is evil but how can one negate a murderer's free will to kill?

Why on earth would you invent th3 capability/need/ability to start with?

Ether there is free will for evil and good alike or there is none.
Evil may be the price we pay for our freewill. I do not know.

I think you've swallowed the religious hokum. What's wrong with heaven?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 9:03 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 10:17 AM Tangle has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2804
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 632 of 636 (843190)
11-14-2018 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 631 by Tangle
11-14-2018 9:17 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Tangle writes:

That sounds like a false choice to me

It is what it is.

Tangle writes:

And there's another evil - why invent carnivores?


It comes with the territory apparently. Besides a good steak is yummy. Not so good for the poor cow though. There is that free will of mine infringing on the cows quality of life.

Tangle writes:

Why on earth would you invent th3 capability/need/ability to start with?

I suppose that as well is a unfortunate side effect of having beings with the freedom to do evil stuff.

Tangle writes:

I think you've swallowed the religious hokum. What's wrong with heaven?

If you wind up there you can tell me.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 9:17 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:06 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 633 of 636 (843192)
11-14-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 632 by 1.61803
11-14-2018 10:17 AM


Re: Definition of free will
1.62 writes:

It is what it is.

It is what it is because life here evolved that way - competition between species, carnivorousness, pain and suffering all makes perfect sense.

But no loving god would ever create such a thing and nor is it the only creation possible.

I suppose that as well is a unfortunate side effect of having beings with the freedom to do evil stuff.

There is no necessity to have that ability.

If you wind up there you can tell me.

I'm using heaven as an example of a godly creation that doesn't involve evil and suffering. Apparently it's perfectly possible.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by 1.61803, posted 11-14-2018 10:17 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 11:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 634 of 636 (843193)
11-14-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 633 by Tangle
11-14-2018 11:06 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Personally, I'll go with the argument that suffering builds character and makes for stronger human prototypes to someday launch out into space. Are you suggesting that a loving God would build a Heaven for us to all dwell in now? (As my loving Father, the homebuilder, built a home for us when I was small?) I say we humans are far too weak and flawed to dwell in such a lavish place. Unless of course, God remade us stronger, kinder, and gentler. Some would argue that He is letting us strengthen ourselves. You have mentioned that society is improving...we are becoming more moral...with or without a God or the approval or scrutiny of One.

Of course, some of my religious contemporaries cling to that whole original sin idea...claiming that what we really need is the establishment of Communion with said God. You may argue that it is God Who needs improvement rather than us. Funny argument that. jar always pushed that crap...that human corrected the god character. But as long as we are imagining One, I suppose we can suggest improvements...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:06 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:32 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 635 of 636 (843194)
11-14-2018 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by Phat
11-14-2018 11:19 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Phat writes:

Personally, I'll go with the argument that suffering builds character and makes for stronger human prototypes to someday launch out into space.

Why not just build us strong to start with?
(And that's such a terrible Victorian idea - suffering hurts and kills; makes us stronger my arse. And why do we need to be stronger anyway???)

Are you suggesting that a loving God would build a Heaven for us to all dwell in now?

Why not?

(As my loving Father, the homebuilder, built a home for us when I was small?)

Isn't that what a real loving father would do? How come your god isn't as good as your human father?

I say we humans are far too weak and flawed to dwell in such a lavish place.

He bloody made us that way! It makes no sense at all.

Unless of course, God remade us stronger, kinder, and gentler. Some would argue that He is letting us strengthen ourselves. You have mentioned that society is improving...we are becoming more moral...with or without a God or the approval or scrutiny of One.
Of course, some of my religious contemporaries cling to that whole original sin idea...claiming that what we really need is the establishment of Communion with said God. You may argue that it is God Who needs improvement rather than us. Funny argument that. jar always pushed that crap...that human corrected the god character. But as long as we are imagining One, I suppose we can suggest improvements...

A child could imagine improvements on this life. It so obviously isn't the result of a loving and all powerful being that it's laughable.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 11:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by Phat, posted 11-14-2018 7:38 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 636 of 636 (843216)
11-14-2018 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Tangle
11-14-2018 11:32 AM


Re: Definition of free will
Tangle writes:

Really Phat, stop projecting, put your prejudices away and start understanding that atheists are fully human too.

Oh, stop! I obviously know all too well that you and ringo are both quite human and quite likable...otherwise, I would never bother going rounds with you. I was just getting frustrated at ringos arguments. You make many of the same ones in your own unique style. To be honest, your arguments occasionally resonate with me and I honestly can't shrug them off as adamantly as Faith does. The way that you describe the belief does make it sound ridiculous at times.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Tangle, posted 11-14-2018 11:32 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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