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Author Topic:   UCLA student tased multiple times... pointless police violence?
mick
Member (Idle past 2545 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 106 of 142 (366674)
11-28-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by mick
11-28-2006 10:09 PM


I mean, what really pisses me off is that people like Chiroptera, who is on the far left of politics on EvC forum, seems happy to err on the side of the cops. They're fucking cowards for doing it - one has to wonder how far fascism in the US has to go before they'll criticize it. It just pisses me off, to see bright people make excuses for a bunch of right wing white fuckers in uniforms and with badges, kicking the shit out of an Iranian for no reason. They should be ashamed of themselves. And if that happened in MY library, I would certainly punch the cop in the head and rescue the Iranian.

I should say, I have not spoken to a single person in Canada who thinks I'm off-the-wall, including professional librarians, who say they would not permit such violence on their premises and would welcome student support to get the cops off the premises.

Mick

Edited by mick, : No reason given.

Edited by mick, : in edit: mind you, libraries in Canada are open to the public, unlike elitist libraries in the US where you have to show ID just to get through the door.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:09 PM mick has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by DrJones*, posted 11-28-2006 10:28 PM mick has responded
 Message 111 by anglagard, posted 11-28-2006 10:47 PM mick has not yet responded
 Message 113 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 11-28-2006 10:50 PM mick has responded
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 11-28-2006 10:51 PM mick has responded
 Message 136 by nator, posted 12-01-2006 5:13 PM mick has responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 2545 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 107 of 142 (366675)
11-28-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Michael
11-28-2006 10:10 PM


michael, do you want to criticize my thought, or just make snide comments from the sidelines?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Michael, posted 11-28-2006 10:10 PM Michael has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1683
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 108 of 142 (366677)
11-28-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by mick
11-28-2006 10:17 PM


mind you, libraries in Canada are open to the public, unlike elitist libraries in the US where you have to show ID just to get through the door.

It was a university library. I was asked to produce my student ID in the library at least 5 times during my time at the U of A.

I have not spoken to a single person in Canada who thinks I'm off-the-wall

Well now your count has increased by 1. No matter the who was right or wrong, a mob charging the cops is just gonna get more people tasered or worse.

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:17 PM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:36 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 2545 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 109 of 142 (366678)
11-28-2006 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by DrJones*
11-28-2006 10:28 PM


drJones writes:

It was a university library. I was asked to produce my student ID in the library at least 5 times during my time at the U of A.

Dr Jones, you should have found out what your rights were before being hassled like that. The vast majority of Canadian univeristies allow ANYBODY to use their libraries. And I know from personal experience that UA is one of those libraries.

in edit: as far as I know, public access to university libraries is guaranteed by law, in canada.

dr jones writes:

. No matter the who was right or wrong, a mob charging the cops is just gonna get more people tasered or worse.

Are you seriously suggesting that the cops would taser 20-40 people? That's just bullshit, and you know it is. That would never happen in a public library in the US.
Mick

Edited by mick, : No reason given.

Edited by mick, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by DrJones*, posted 11-28-2006 10:28 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6396
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 110 of 142 (366679)
11-28-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Michael
11-28-2006 10:10 PM


Indeed, in the very next post after yours he states:

I mean, what really pisses me off is that people like Chiroptera...seems happy to err on the side of the cops.

He's no longer reading the thread, it seems, but making up his own conversation as he goes along.


Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Michael, posted 11-28-2006 10:10 PM Michael has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:50 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 111 of 142 (366682)
11-28-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by mick
11-28-2006 10:17 PM


One Library I know Of
Mick writes:

mind you, libraries in Canada are open to the public, unlike elitist libraries in the US where you have to show ID just to get through the door.

Not in the college library system I run, not to enter, not to use computers, not even to check out materials once we know you. By the way, the library I run happens to be in West Texas, which is not generally known as a bastion of liberalism.

Neither my managment philosophy nor my MLS education (Emporia State University) includes a belief in bureaucracy or bullshit.

I guess according to some people I run libraries "Canadian style."

Edited by anglagard, : grammar


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:17 PM mick has not yet responded

    
mick
Member (Idle past 2545 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 112 of 142 (366683)
11-28-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Chiroptera
11-28-2006 10:40 PM


He's no longer reading the thread, it seems, but making up his own conversation as he goes along.

mick writes:

I mean, what really pisses me off is that people like Chiroptera...seems happy to err on the side of the cops.

chiroptera writes:

I guarantee, if the students had done something more physical, and if violence did escalate, then public opinion would overwhelmingly have been on the side of the police.

Chiroptera, that is the quote I would say is pro-cop. You say without any evidence whatsoever (indeed, you guarantee it!) that the cops have the favor of public opinion. You might disagree with my interpretation that you are pro-cop, but it would be better to make your position clear, rather than saying I am being stupid.

Mick

Edited by mick, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Chiroptera, posted 11-28-2006 10:40 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Chiroptera, posted 11-28-2006 11:19 PM mick has not yet responded

  
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 1847 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 113 of 142 (366684)
11-28-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by mick
11-28-2006 10:17 PM


At the University of South Florida ( USF ) Saint Petersburg campus, I can go in the library whenever it is open, no ID needed. Five miles down the road at Saint Petersburg college the library is a joint venture between Saint Pete and the college, all welcome.


Look to this day, For yesterday is already a dream. And tomorrow only a vision. But today We lived, makes every Yesterday a dream of Happiness and every tomorrow A vision of hope. Look well there to This day.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:17 PM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by mick, posted 11-29-2006 1:36 AM alacrity fitzhugh has not yet responded

    
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 142 (366685)
11-28-2006 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by mick
11-28-2006 10:17 PM


I mean, what really pisses me off is that people like Chiroptera, who is on the far left of politics on EvC forum, seems happy to err on the side of the cops.

Niven's Law 1(a): Never throw shit at an armed man.

It's not a difficult guideline to understand. Cops arm themselves, and train with those arms, to use violence to coerce behavior. After many hundreds of years of police tradition and criminal science and psychology, they're pretty good at it.

I'm not defending brutal cops. But asking random strangers to die for a stranger? Faulting them for not doing it?

On what planet do you live where that's reasonable?

It just pisses me off, to see bright people make excuses for a bunch of right wing white fuckers in uniforms and with badges, kicking the shit out of an Iranian for no reason.

The only person who made excuses for those cops was NJ, and we tore him a third cornchute for it. You're late to the party. Try to keep up.

The rest of us are "making excuses" for the completely unrelated bystanders who did exactly the right thing - recorded an instance of police brutality and took it to the authorities, not charging armed, violent men at the cost of their own lives.

If you're pissed off at the situation, don't make the mistake of thinking you're the only one. But you've drastically mistargeted your anger. In my book, the people to be pissed off at are the fucking cops who tasered an Iranian 79 times for no reason, not the bystanders, and not random people on the fucking internet.

Your high horse looks a little shaky in the legs. I'd get down from it before you wind up on your ass.

And if that happened in MY library, I would certainly punch the cop in the head and rescue the Iranian.

Congratulations. That would have landed him in jail, you in the morgue, and the cop a promotion. What the rest of us are telling you is that you need to fucking think about the consequences of your actions, not fault others for doing so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:17 PM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 11:21 PM crashfrog has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6396
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 115 of 142 (366687)
11-28-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by mick
11-28-2006 10:50 PM


quote:
You say without any evidence whatsoever (indeed, you guarantee it!) that the cops have the favor of public opinion.

Yes, that is what I said. I said that the American public is pro-cop. I'm not sure how that makes me pro-cop. Is it late where you are?


Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 10:50 PM mick has not yet responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 2545 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 116 of 142 (366689)
11-28-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by crashfrog
11-28-2006 10:51 PM


crashfrog writes:

I'm not defending brutal cops. But asking random strangers to die for a stranger? Faulting them for not doing it? On what planet do you live where that's reasonable?

Crashfrog, you are arguing against somebody's argument, but it is not mine!

I have never suggested that anybody might die, and it is utterly innapropriate for you to suggest otherwise. I have made it quite clear that a concerted response from the onlookers might help the young man.

mick writes:

the surrounding students, while clearly disapproving of the cops' behaviour, do absolutely nothing to help the victim.

I don't see anything there saying anybody has to die. This is probably something in your American fantasy world.

crashfrog writes:

The only person who made excuses for those cops was NJ

I don't agree.

crashfrog writes:

They used their own brutality as an excuse for more brutality.

That is, quite clearly, an explanation of the tasering cops attitude. You say that they tasered him "as an excuse for more brutality."

It is an explanation I happen to disagree with. Deal with it.

crashfrog writes:

The rest of us are "making excuses" for the completely unrelated bystanders who did exactly the right thing - recorded an instance of police brutality and took it to the authorities, not charging armed, violent men at the cost of their own lives.

I happen to disagree with the idea that they did "exactly the right thing". I think I've made my reasoning quite clear.

You make completely irrelevant propoganda comments, like:

crashfrog writes:

Your high horse looks a little shaky in the legs. I'd get down from it before you wind up on your ass.

I'm not particularly worried about "winding up on my ass" but I don't want my point of view to be rubbished for no reason. I'm sorry, but I don't find that kind of argument convincing.

Mick


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 11-28-2006 10:51 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2006 1:18 AM mick has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 142 (366707)
11-29-2006 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by mick
11-28-2006 11:21 PM


I have made it quite clear that a concerted response from the onlookers might help the young man.

And we've rebutted this nonsense. You're asking people to charge into "suicide by cop." Do they not have that where you live? Suicide by cop? Here, it's such a guarantee that cops will shoot you under certain circumstances that people who want to kill themselves, instead of slitting their wrists or huffing on their car's exhaust pipe, coerce the cops into killing them.

I don't see anything there saying anybody has to die.

You're entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. And the fact is (which you have not responded to), cops would draw down on an angry mob of students and shoot at them if they felt they were endangered.

What you describe definitely puts the cops in danger, and they would definately use lethal force.

I don't agree.

You're not entitled to your own facts.

That is, quite clearly, an explanation of the tasering cops attitude. You say that they tasered him "as an excuse for more brutality."

Now I see you're playing the shifting definitions game. You claim I've excused the cops, but the only thing you could find was where I attempted to explain the cops.

Argue honestly, or not at all. I'm not inclined to be charitable about being misrepresented.

I'm not particularly worried about "winding up on my ass" but I don't want my point of view to be rubbished for no reason.

I've given you the reasons. Can you stop misrepresenting me and address them, or not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by mick, posted 11-28-2006 11:21 PM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by mick, posted 11-29-2006 1:32 AM crashfrog has responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 2545 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 118 of 142 (366708)
11-29-2006 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by crashfrog
11-29-2006 1:18 AM


crashfrog writes:

And we've rebutted this nonsense. You're asking people to charge into "suicide by cop." Do they not have that where you live? Suicide by cop?

Is it so strange that I have never heard of such a thing? I have to say I am amazed that you think "suicide by cop" is a normal state of affairs that I (for some reason?) am supposed to take for granted.

No, I've never heard of "suicide by cop" and if that's seriously what is motivating these students' behaviour then it goes without saying that they can't be held responsible for what they do.

crashfrog writes:

hat you describe definitely puts the cops in danger, and they would definately use lethal force.

Well I am learning a lot about US campuses here. Apparently students are in danger of lethal force while reading quietly in the library! I am sorry if UCLA has such problems with terrorism, that "lethal force" is de rigeur on campus.

Sigh... If that is what your argument lies upon - lethal force as a standard form of discipline, and "suicide by cop" as a way of life - well then you can win the argument no probs.

But don't you see how stupid your argument sounds? You appear to be saying: "If somebody gets tazered for no reason in the middle of your public library, don't do anything, because the cops might use lethal force on YOU!"

Mick

Edited by mick, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2006 1:18 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2006 1:44 AM mick has responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 2545 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 119 of 142 (366710)
11-29-2006 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by alacrity fitzhugh
11-28-2006 10:50 PM


Hmmn. That sounds encouraging. yet crashfrog is saying that suicide by cop and the use of lethal force is standard on US campuses... so now I don't know what to believe...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by alacrity fitzhugh, posted 11-28-2006 10:50 PM alacrity fitzhugh has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by crashfrog, posted 11-29-2006 1:46 AM mick has not yet responded
 Message 127 by Wounded King, posted 11-29-2006 11:48 AM mick has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 142 (366711)
11-29-2006 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by mick
11-29-2006 1:32 AM


Is it so strange that I have never heard of such a thing? I have to say I am amazed that you think "suicide by cop" is a normal state of affairs that I (for some reason?) am supposed to take for granted.

I guess I'm amazed that you would call thirty students you don't even know cowards without troubling yourself to understand the culture in which they live and acted. But I guess the oh-so-enlightened non-Americans don't need to know anything about our country to judge what is and isn't a reasonable response. Nope, that's right, we're the ignorant ones, somehow.

No, I've never heard of "suicide by cop" and if that's seriously what is motivating these students' behaviour then it goes without saying that they can't be held responsible for what they do.

Did I say that's what was motivating their behavior? No, I didn't. Try to keep up, ok?

What motivated their behavior was a desire not to commit suicide by cop, but at the same time, a desire to help that kid. Recording his abuse was the best thing they could have done. It's the only reason any of us have heard about the situation.

Apparently students are in danger of lethal force while reading quietly in the library!

Yes, they are. Or leaving your own bachelor party. Cops are out of control in America. But you can't lobby to reign in police powers without being accused of being "soft on crime".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by mick, posted 11-29-2006 1:32 AM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by mick, posted 11-29-2006 1:47 AM crashfrog has responded

  
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