Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   the new and improved obama thread
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 174 of 237 (460769)
03-18-2008 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Jazzns
03-18-2008 5:13 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
I look at it this way -- what Obama really believes about Wright's opinions is something we will never know for sure. On the campaign trail, speeches and sound bites are all highly choreographed and staged events specifically designed to sway public opinion, garner support, or counter negative PR. They are not designed to be platforms to lay bare one's soul.
The reality is, if politicians told the complete truth and said what was really on their mind, nobody would vote for them. I do not claim to know what Obama thinks or believes on these issues(or McCain or Clinton or any other candidate.) It is possible what he is presenting to the public for consumption truly reflects his private views. Then again, perhaps it is not. Who knows. Most people won't care as long as the right thing is said to the right audience. That's how elections are won.
Like everyone else, the only thing we have to go by are the sound bites and speeches presented to us along with the candidate's public record. Both are easily manipulated by the press using selective editing and presentation.
As most everyone will have some dirty laundry that could be aired out and used against one in the public eye, I tend to ignore these type of inevitable squabbles unless they are obviously a serious and grave issue. With Obama, it is a bit more difficult to judge him on merit or qualifications as his time in the Senate has been slim and his voting record is sparse. I really don't know what to make of the guy. Race is something that has not even entered into my mind and has nothing to do with my questions or opinions formed to this point.
He obviously is very articulate, intelligent, and well educated; but does he have the experience and 'political' talent to really sway the opposition in Congress and get things accomplished? At this point, I am a bit skeptical whether or not he can really be effective and bring about the type of significant change he is calling for. I don't know how to answer this. If Obama is the candidate, the debates with McCain will likely reveal more.
I want someone who can really get something done. Can he do it better than Clinton or McCain? That is the only thing I care about. He could turn out to be a Kennedy or he could be a one-term lame duck like Carter. It's a crapshoot IMO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Jazzns, posted 03-18-2008 5:13 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Chiroptera, posted 03-18-2008 7:04 PM Grizz has replied
 Message 177 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2008 7:04 PM Grizz has replied
 Message 190 by Jazzns, posted 03-19-2008 12:47 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 179 of 237 (460776)
03-18-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Chiroptera
03-18-2008 7:04 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
You mean killed early on and then canonized as a saint? That's what a lot of black folk are thinking, actually.
Kennedy as holding high popularity and success with the public. A new Camelot.
...he could be a one-term lame duck like Carter.
You mean an intelligent and far-sighted President whose policies, no matter how obviously necessary and correct, will be ridiculed and resisted until he's ejected from the political scene? That's what I expect, actually.
That is correct. Carter's main problem was his laid back personality and demeanor and his misfortune of being President at the wrong time in US history. Politics is all about image and perception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Chiroptera, posted 03-18-2008 7:04 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 180 of 237 (460777)
03-18-2008 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Silent H
03-18-2008 7:04 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
I agree the most important issue is whether he has the right plan and the ability to push it through. But I don't see C or McC as showing any more promise than he does on that score (which is not to diminish them, but to state how lucky we could be at this time). On top of credentials (which I feel are equal enough) Obama has a message neither of the others are pushing, and a palpable charisma neither possess. I can't stand some of his positions, but on the main I agree with him, and he is a person I'd be more willing to compromise with. That might be true for other members of the gov't. What rep will compromise with Hillary, how many would support McCain? Obama's lack of time in office, might be seen less as a lack of experience and more of a lack of entrenched interests from either party.
I understand, but being around for a while I am less concerned with messages than with the ability to put them into practice. Anyone can relay a message that strikes a chord. How many of us would like to hear from a politcian - "I know my chances of doing this are slim. All I can promise is I will try to the last." Such a response would Garner my vote in a heartbeat.
I aggree his lack of experience may be an asset. Voters are obviously tired of corruption and scandal and he may be seen as relatively untainted by the trappings of power and special interest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2008 7:04 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Silent H, posted 03-19-2008 12:49 AM Grizz has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 181 of 237 (460779)
03-18-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Silent H
03-18-2008 7:04 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
How was the transcript Molbio linked to "easily manipulated"? Even if one wanted to have doubts as to whether he truly feels deep down in some hidden part of his brain everything that he expressed... isn't his message the right one we need in the public arena at this time? Isn't it the kind of inspirational message we ought to have coming out of the White House?
Well, being the cynic I am, I look at it like this: His motivation for giving the speech was not to present a message to America or unite people; the motivation for the speech was to partake in damage control due to the inuendos surfacing regarding his relationship with Wright.
Nothing happens on the campaign trail out of utopian concerns. Nothing happens without the approval of the Campaign staff and pollsters. This is politics and before anyhone so much as farts in public, everything is carefully staged, planned,and rehearsed well in advance.
This is not to say I do not believe his sincerity in his call for unity or that it was not welcome or needed. I am simply saying, as with any candidate, the number one goal is to get elected. Nobody does anything without this in mind. I do not believe race relations was the impetus for the speech - damage control was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2008 7:04 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by GDR, posted 03-18-2008 9:01 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 196 of 237 (460880)
03-19-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Silent H
03-19-2008 12:49 AM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy -- particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.
But I have asserted a firm conviction -- a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people -- that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.
Would that work for you?
Yes and No.
When a candidate responds similarly and realistically across the board on the issues of Health Care, the Economy, and Foreign Affairs, then I would certainly be swayed. Although I do not doubt his sincerity and agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed, I do see the speach primarily as damage control.
The speech itself was brilliant, but if it were given for it's own sake, before the Wright affair became public, it would have made much more of an impression on me than it has. I would have concluded that they don't come any more genuine than this.
I try to retain my objectivity and I have already admitted I am a cold-hearted cynic when it comes to politics and the motivations of those who seek office. I have never really been swayed over by a politician where I have said "Yes, that's the guy." Like always, my decision will probably come down to the wire as I digest more and more of the happenings on the campaign trail and see what these candidates are really about.
It is a bit difficult with Obama because he is relatively new on the scene and to be honest, until his name came up on the campaign trail I did not even know he was a Senator.
McCain's flap yesterday on Iran has given me a bit of a pause as I wonder how someone can be that out of touch with the situation to make a foul-up like that. He also has a record of changing his position too many times on too many issues. At times, it's hard to figure the guy out.
Clinton I tend to dislike on a personal level. To me, she comes across as totally fake, manipulating, and insincere. She does have experience and clout on the Hill, however.
Obama comes across to me as the most genuine and likeable of the three. If he can retain the same genuineness on other issues, I will be probably be swayed in the long run. I like what he has said and he should just come out with it in a similar fashion on other issues ..e.g. -- 'I know I want Universal Health Care but the chances that its going to happen in one administration is remote.' We need to be realistic on issues and the politicians need to stop delivering empty promises that serve only as rallying cries and fashionable campaign slogans.
When they do make blanket campaign goals, I want to hear How, When, Where? Unfortunately, we never do. "Read my Lips....."
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Silent H, posted 03-19-2008 12:49 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Silent H, posted 03-20-2008 12:44 AM Grizz has not replied
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 03-20-2008 3:00 PM Grizz has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 202 of 237 (460980)
03-20-2008 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Silent H
03-20-2008 3:00 PM


Re: Damage Control v Healing Damage
Now to Grizz. I've been thinking about your comment that Obama's speech was damage control and that you would have been more impressed if he had made it before (and without) the scandal. The more I think about it the more I disagree with your cynicism.
To start with I think if he had made a speech like that at the outset of his campaign, he would have been derided as making race a part of this presidential election. Cynics would have likely commented that he had prepared a brilliant speech in a position of safety and threw it out there without any reason to have done so, other than to look good, and play off his multicultural background. He would have been "inventing" a crisis and division where there was none.
That this speech was a response to a crisis... what would normally be called damage control... is what makes it so powerful a statement about Obama.
Normally in this type of situation, where mud is being thrown at a candidate, effective damage control is the verbal equivalent of dodging or catching that mud and throwing some clever shots back.
In this specific case, Obama patiently scraped off the mud thrown at himself and his rival, indeed protecting his rival from future mudslinging, patiently built some mud bricks, stacked them neatly, stepped aside and said "Let's use these to build a house we can all live in."
He didn't just take the high road, he took a road I had not known existed. I know myself well enough to understand I would have been incapable of such action... but I wish I were. That's a leader to me.
Well, I can live with that. You are correct in saying he would have been taken to the woodshed for playing the race card.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 03-20-2008 3:00 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024