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Author Topic:   Walt Brown's super-tectonics
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 307 (82283)
02-02-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by simple
02-02-2004 6:14 PM


Re: flood fighting
quote:
I guess you haven't heard about the many folks who are abandoning evilution like rats from a sinking ship! I don't have the names handy, any more than I do folks who still hold to evilution. In either case, their names would not fit in this forum. There is many websites on creation science, with testimonies of converted former uniformists, as you probably know.
Oh, really. Like rats on a sinking ship you say? Hmm, must have missed it. Anyway, the Steve-o-meter is at 400 right now, still plugging right along. What is the Steve-o-meter you ask? It is a list of scientists that agree with the following statement:
Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to "intelligent design," to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.
Oh, and you can only get on the list if your name is Steve. Since Steve's comprise about 1% of the scientific community, you can see that there are still quite a few that accept the theory of evolution as the mechanism for species diversity. How many Steves are creationists? Got a number? Surely you can shave down that list you deign unfit for this forum and just list the Steves.
quote:
--your answer about the fossils and stata being used to date each other "No, not in the manner that you state it. " Can anyone else out there confirm this?
As a general rule, igneous rock (lava rock) is dated above and below sediment layers. The sediment layer is then assumed to be between the ages of the dated rock above and below. Sediment itself can not be dated using radiometric analysis, although techniques are being devised now that may be able to accurately date sediments. So, any fossil found in the sediment layers are assumed to have formed the same time the sediment layer formed. If igneous rock is not available for dating, fossils can date the sediments if those fossils age was first dated using igneous rock layers. However, ages measured using this method are not as trustworthy as ages from igneous rock.
quote:
Finally, you sound pretty convinced of this hot water stuff. Pity Walt never thought of it. Somehow I think there may be an answer for that. For example, are you accounting for dispersed water (of the theory) cooling in the atmosphere, and space? Are you accounting that there was a lot of salt etc in it, and that there was cooler seas already on the surface?
Hot water would heat the atmosphere as well. Ever been in a steam bath? Add quite a few more degrees onto that and we might be getting close. We could also go into the energy released by plates smacking into each other, this would make the steam bath feel like a walk on the polar ice caps. What it comes down to is that it would require a miracle and supernatural intervention in order for life to survive. As soon as you conclude it was a miracle you have no right calling it science, magic is excluded from scientific theories because they can't be replicated or falsified.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by simple, posted 02-02-2004 6:14 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by simple, posted 02-02-2004 8:53 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 307 (82699)
02-03-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by simple
02-03-2004 3:41 PM


Re: flood fighting
quote:
Do you have evidence it does not? As far as coming up with an evidenceless fantasy as to whether it might be older or younger, it don't much matter, as both would be nothingness without knowing! To determine something fairly accurate, it seems to me, you would need to know the conditions that existed pre flood, as well as in flood, not just the part of the equation called 'post flood' otherwise our answer will be skewed.
Crashfrog has already listed one fine example of why we have confidence in the constancy of decay rates. We do know what the decay rates were before the date that creationists assign to the flood. We also have confidence in the mass of a proton, mass of a neutron, speed of light, gravity constants, and numerous other constants in the natural world that factor into our understanding of the universe. Unlike organisms, constants in physics don't change in the same frame of reference (some constants, I think, can change between two frames of reference, Relativistic effects). So, it IS up to you to disprove how physical constants have changed over time, when constancy is already evident in the past and in the present.
quote:
To simply measure how something erodes, or decays etc now, without a good understanding is not acceptable. I could take someone to Canada's Trans Canada Hwy (for example)which goes from Atlantic to Pacific, take them to Nova Scotia near where it begins somewhere, at a place where the road happens to be heading North for several miles, and have them speculate whicere it will come out. They could assume that they have been going north for miles, observably, therefore they would be maybe in Moscow in a few days! Unless they have other factors in the equation, their answer is bound to be wrong!
The mechanism IS well understood. Your example does not even come close to describing the amount of knowledge that we have about radioactive decay. Your analogy should be "If we know down speed, direction (in a straight line, no curves), and where the car ends up, we can calculate where the car began." There are no "curves in the road" with radioactive decay (on a log scale). It is a constant and MEASUREABLE phenomenon.
Such things as nuclear reactors and nuclear bombs function because of the knowledge we have, not because of a lack of it. If decay rates were not constant, reactors would either quit or explode suddenly. This doesn't happen. So is it a fairytale faith that keeps reactors from blowing up or is it solid knowledge? If we can observe the decay rates thousands of years ago via supernovae, and those rates are the same then as today, why should we assume that they are not constant? If experiment after experiment kicks out the same numbers, why should we assume that things have changed. What I am trying to say is that there is NO CURRENT EVIDENCE that decay rates have changed, and tons of counter-evidence for change in decay rates. The only fairy tale here is that merely believing in something without evidence causes this effect to happen in reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by simple, posted 02-03-2004 3:41 PM simple has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 265 of 307 (82707)
02-03-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Joe Meert
02-03-2004 4:10 PM


Re: flood fighting
Nice to have you around Jim, another quality post. I feel like a concert goer clammoring for an encore, but do you think it might be useful to post the Hawaiin Island Chain as an example corroborated dating? It would seem to fit in well with the current discussion. Geology isn't my strong point and I don't feel a cut and paste is appropriate with you here. Just a thought.
PS- love the avatar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Joe Meert, posted 02-03-2004 4:10 PM Joe Meert has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 268 of 307 (82710)
02-03-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by simple
02-03-2004 4:25 PM


Re: flood fighting
quote:
If the accurate date is when they were violently buried, fine! --Of course it 'is expected' that fossils are the 'same age'. Question is what is that age!
Using the tools of science, how should we measure that age then. Remeber, using the tools of science, not quoting a book written by an ancient culture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by simple, posted 02-03-2004 4:25 PM simple has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 307 (82713)
02-03-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by crashfrog
02-03-2004 4:27 PM


quote:
No. He's claiming that nobody has ever claimed that magnetic reversals in the rocks will make your compass flip around, because the magnetic reversals have nothing to do with compasses.
Therefore Brown's comments about compass-flipping are a deception at best.
Hold a compass next to lodestone and it will deflect. But admitting this would really shoot a hole in Walt's theory. This means we could measure the direction of earths magnetic field when the lodestone solidified. Bad news for Walt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2004 4:27 PM crashfrog has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 307 (82743)
02-03-2004 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by simple
02-03-2004 5:03 PM


We have spent time and effort showing you why we trust constant decay rates. Care to comment on the actual evidence, such as the supernovae or the Oklo reactor which shows constant decay rates for 2 billion years?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by simple, posted 02-03-2004 5:03 PM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by simple, posted 02-03-2004 5:23 PM Loudmouth has not replied

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