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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 16 of 166 (529412)
10-09-2009 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by tuffers
10-08-2009 12:42 PM


Likely not "all"
tuffers writes:

A lot of Christians (maybe all Christians) have permanent anxiety issues about their god and what he could do to them. Maybe that's not such an issue if you voluntarily become a believe later in life, rather than suffer indoctrination from birth.

I would say that different people accept information and find comfort in different ways.

Perhaps some of the Christians you speak of that have anxiety issues are simply on the wrong path for their own personal, specific journey to peace.

I can see how if someone would be more comforted by objective knowledge instead of subjective ideas... then a belief that the Christian religion is in fact correct would be a cause for certain levels of anxiety.

...to put it lightly

Sounds like a case of putting religion ahead of the actual virtues that religion stands for. Honesty really is a comforting virtue. Although sometimes being honest isn't what is traditionally accepted in society. Such areas tend to cause their own anxiety. Again, it would depend on the person to subjectively identify which anxiety would be easier to deal with in order to finally feel some peace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by tuffers, posted 10-08-2009 12:42 PM tuffers has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 17 of 166 (529473)
10-09-2009 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
10-06-2009 9:53 AM


Hi Stile,

Is there something that is worth obtaining through God that can only be obtained through religion (or God) that I don't have already?

Are you simply relying on the Abrahamic religions for this? Have you taken a look at Eastern Philosophy (Buddhism, Janism, etc.)...?

I never ghad any results from it myself, but many have. Many acheive certain levels of spirituality that is claimed to be euphoric, or something like that.

Again, I didn't, but as one should expect from any faith-based belief, it's a lot to do with inner acceptance rather than objective results.

Are you looking for salvation, an aftelife, or something like that?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 10-06-2009 9:53 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Stile, posted 10-12-2009 11:40 AM onifre has not yet responded

    
Aware Wolf
Member
Posts: 154
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 18 of 166 (529496)
10-09-2009 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Stile
10-09-2009 8:38 AM


Re: Not trying to call religion useless
I understand, and I mostly agree with you. Just a minor point:

Stile writes:

...then they are lying.

I think that lying may be a little strong. Wrong, I would say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Stile, posted 10-09-2009 8:38 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Stile, posted 10-13-2009 8:49 AM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 19 of 166 (530128)
10-12-2009 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by onifre
10-09-2009 1:34 PM


Euphoria Eushmoria
onifre writes:

Are you simply relying on the Abrahamic religions for this?

No, I am looking anywhere and everywhere for something that can be labelled as "better" then what I have... if such a thing exists. The community here is mostly Abrahamic-related, however, so that's why my wording was more geared that way.

Have you taken a look at Eastern Philosophy (Buddhism, Janism, etc.)...?

Yes. In fact, this is kind of where such an idea of always-on-the-lookout-for-possible-improvement comes from.

My issue is more with how restrictive some relgions can be. Restrictive in the sense of "you can only get what you need from us." Eastern Philosophy (in my limited experience) isn't constrained by such an arrogant claim. It seems ironic to me that Pride is considered one of the worst forms of sin by the same relgions that hold such a sin so dearly at their deepest levels.

Many acheive certain levels of spirituality that is claimed to be euphoric, or something like that.

From what I can tell, these levels of 'spirituality' are the same levels we all experience at one point or another in our lives. They are just easier methods to re-create such feelings. Easier for those who do it, anyway. "Easy" is a subjective thing that would differ from person to person.

As for the levels of euphoria... I fully believe that it's describing the same feelings where words always fail. Feelings such as Christmas morning when you got "that present" as a kid. Or maybe that time with friends when everyonen was joking and someone said something so incredibly funny you couldn't stop laughing for 20 minutes. For some it's the unbending feelings of acceptance and love that come from close bonds with deep experiences with friends or family.

I think all those types of feelings/experiences are all one and the same "euphoria" that everyone talks about. They're all undescribable, over-the-top, words-fail, most powerful emotions ever imaginable... all that sort of stuff.

Again, I didn't, but as one should expect from any faith-based belief, it's a lot to do with inner acceptance rather than objective results.

Personally, I think it's more a fact of "different strokes for different folks." People are different. It only makes sense that the paths to euphoria/enlightenment/peace/solace/happiness... are going to be different for each person.

Some paths will be easier, some will be harder. Just because something works for someone else (or even everyone else) doesn't mean it will work for you or me. To me, such varying methods just makes sense with something that is so subjective in nature.

I could be wrong though... which is also what this thread is about.

Are you looking for salvation, an aftelife, or something like that?

I'm not looking for anything specific. Although I'd say I'm more looking for things that we can show to be real. In that sense, I'd say I'm veering away from any type of afterlife/resurrection ideas. Such things are inherently "beyond" our current state, in which case it's impossible to show that they are, indeed, real. Therefore, it's not really worth investing too much time into. Sort of a cross-that-bridge when I come to it type of deal.

As far as my current self-status. I'm really good. This part here:

Stile writes:

I have morals, I have love and success, I'm happy and healthy, I'm at peace and I have no discomfort towards issues like the afterlife or other unknowns.

...wasn't just an arguement. I really am very content and satisfied. This is more of a probe for possible-extra-content, then it is a desperate plea for help or anything like that. Or kind of a double-check to make sure I'm not ignoring something that actually does have some level of value for my type of subjective self.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by onifre, posted 10-09-2009 1:34 PM onifre has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 20 of 166 (530379)
10-13-2009 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Aware Wolf
10-09-2009 3:49 PM


Re: Not trying to call religion useless
Aware Wolf writes:

I think that lying may be a little strong. Wrong, I would say.

I agree that it may be a little strong. Sometimes I add in strong-sounding language on purpose to spark a bit of debate. Sometimes it just slips in there by accident. I can't remember which one this was

I do remember that there is not much difference between "lying" and someone who continuously insists that they have "the only path" to peace and happiness or euphoria while they cannot support their claim, and in fact are faced with contradictory evidence...

However, you are correct. I must admit that some people are just headstrong and misguided and not necessarily intent on misleading others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Aware Wolf, posted 10-09-2009 3:49 PM Aware Wolf has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9432
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 21 of 166 (531666)
10-19-2009 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
10-06-2009 9:53 AM


Why Not God?
Stile writes:

I am not an atheist because I have something against religion, I am an atheist because I have no reason to be otherwise.

That's funny. I am a believer because I have no reason to be otherwise.

Stile writes:

There were many positive things. A sense of community, a sense of peace, a time for reflection and forethought.

You mention God, but never seem to have even pretended to have a relationship with Him. Or am I premature.....
Stile writes:

Is there something that is worth obtaining through God that can only be obtained through religion (or God) that I don't have already?

Good question. I never hear an audible voice, but I find no problem with my irrational belief that God exists and seeks communion with me. Personally, I think He expects me to mature and get deeper on my own, rather than impress me with proof of His existence. And thinking about what you said, I think that what you have is freely given and is yours already, whether you acknowledge Him or not. Which leads to the question of why you would ignore Him...(is a prayer that silly?)

Stile writes:

If you are unable to support your position, but you'd still like to answer... please do. But please indicate that you are unable to verify that what you're saying is actually a part of reality. Unverifiable experiences, ideas, and thoughts are still very important and beneficial in their own way. Acknowledging them as such will allow us to skip the quibbling over their actual veracity and focus on discussing their potential merit.

OK, I will freely admit that I cannot prove Him. (at least to others) Next question?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 10-06-2009 9:53 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 10-19-2009 12:01 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 22 of 166 (531698)
10-19-2009 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
10-19-2009 10:00 AM


Re: Why Not God?
Phat writes:

You mention God, but never seem to have even pretended to have a relationship with Him. Or am I premature...

I suppose part of my problem would be that I'm not sure how I could have identified such a relationship. Which, again, is kind of what this thread is about.

I certainly believed God was real, and I certainly believed I was talking and sharing with God and He was comforting and walking with me.

Then I reached a point where I could attain all the same (sometimes larger) feelings of self-confidence, comfort, elation and peace without having to think of God.

I may have had a relationship with God, and now have found better sources for spiritual requirements.

Or, maybe I only thought I had a relationship with God, and I just didn't know I was mistaken.

I'm not really worried about whether or not God exists. I'm more concerned with where I am in life now, and if there's anything I'm missing. If you believe that a relationship with God would provide something that cannot be obtained otherwise, please feel free to attempt a description of such a thing. So far, no one is able to identify anything that is unattainable without God anyway.

That is, I'm not calling any relationships with God useless. I'm only saying that a relationship with God is not necessary for me (and likely others) to have a level of spiritualism that is equal to or surpassing the level of spiritualism that comes from a relationship with God.

And thinking about what you said, I think that what you have is freely given and is yours already, whether you acknowledge Him or not. Which leads to the question of why you would ignore Him...(is prayer that silly?)

Ignore Him? This sounds like your confusing my statements about ignoring the concept or idea about God that many people present as "the truth" without any reason to trust them. No, I'm not ignoring any actual "voice of God" that is knocking on my brain. At least, I'm unaware of doing such a thing, anyway.

I don't think prayer's silly. I just think it isn't necessary. But, if prayer is simply "talking to God" (or attempting to), then I do in fact pray and continue to do so. I just never receive an answer. In which case I continue to ignore the concepts of God that people present to me without any reason to actually give them credence.

But don't confuse this for ignoring "the real" God. Because I am very open to being "touched" or "contacted" by the real God. It just hasn't happened yet (as far as I can tell). I think it hasn't happened yet because there is no real God. I think God doesn't exist. But that wouldn't make me ignore any actual real communication that I'm able to perceive in any way. And I'm certainly willing to change my thoughts on such a subject given any sort of reliable evidence to the contrary.

OK, I will freely admit that I cannot prove Him. Next question?

A very healthy position. And one I respect.

But this thread isn't about showing that God exists.

This thread is about showing that the effects of God exist.

For example, a lot of God-believing groups tend to indicate that your life will be better (more peaceful, successful, comforting... whatever) if you believe in their God. My point is that there is no group of people (especially religious groups) that stick out as a group that "is better" than everyone else.

Therefore, either God doesn't help anyone, or God helps everyone equally regardless of their beliefs in Him, or God doesn't exist.

This thread is about those people who claim such things to actually show a real, observable effect of God that is unattainable without God. My current position is that such an effect doesn't exist. Even atheists are quite capable of reaching the highest levels of spirituality (peace, solace, comfort, confidence, success...).

If you think that God can grant such spirituality to atheists as well, without atheists even knowing it... I have no problem with such a position. Although it does acknowledge that God doesn't care if you believe in Him or not (which I think is a God actually worthy of respect).

Edited by Stile, : An edit from 4 years later is still an edit. Just some spelling mistakes. I mean spelling "creativities." I'm too good for mistakes... You're a mistake! Stop looking at meeee!!!!1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 10-19-2009 10:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 10-20-2009 2:02 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9432
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 23 of 166 (531923)
10-20-2009 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
10-19-2009 12:01 PM


Re: Why Not God?
Stile writes:

I may have had a relationship with God, and now have found better sources for spiritual requirements.

Define better.

Stile writes:

I'm not really worried about whether or not God exists. I'm more concerned with where I am in life now, and if there's anything I'm missing. If you believe that a relationship with God would provide something that cannot be obtained otherwise, please feel free to attempt a description of such a thing.

If I believe that God (even as a hypothetical concept) is greater, wiser, and smarter than I am, that type of relationship would most certainly provide me that which cannot be obtained otherwise. So I guess I am admitting that I need the relationship for selfish reasons. Kinda like hanging out with a Rich Uncle.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 10-19-2009 12:01 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 10-20-2009 3:08 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 24 of 166 (531936)
10-20-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
10-20-2009 2:02 PM


Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

Stile writes:

I may have had a relationship with God, and now have found better sources for spiritual requirements.

Define better.

Okay:

Better Sources for Spiritual Requirements:
-those sources that grant me a more powerful sense of spiritual ideas (happiness, comfort, peace, solace...)

Phat writes:

If I believe that God (even as a hypothetical concept) is greater, wiser, and smarter than I am, that type of relationship would most certainly provide me that which cannot be obtained otherwise. So I guess I am admitting that I need the relationship for selfish reasons. Kinda like hanging out with a Rich Uncle.

I don't have any issue with such a statement of your personal spirituality. I fully admit that God (regardless of His actual existence) can very well be the most gratifying and powerful source for spirituality for you.

I'm not trying to belittle or reduce anyone else's personal sources for spirituality.

I'm trying to say that for those who claim to have proprietary rights over any specific source for spirituality that they also claim is "the only way" for all others to obtain elevated spiritual status is laughable. (I don't think that you're claiming this)

Spirituality (as I believe you're well aware) is extremely subjective and personal. Because it is so subjective, the methods used by each individual to achieve high levels of spirituality are also going to vary widely.

It's obvious that God and religion are a very powerful method for many people to reach such levels.

But, because of the highly subjective nature that is inherent in "spirituality," it is practically impossible for any one specific path (even "God and religion") to be a useful method for all people.

Therefore, I am claiming that there doesn't exist a benefit that is only available through God.
In a more general sense, I am claiming that there doesn't exist a benefit that is only available through any single, specific spiritual method. However, this is EvC forum and it makes sense to single out the "God and religion" method for discussion purposes.

I admit that there may be benefits that are only available through God for certain individual people who are geared towards such possibility-based methods of spirituality.
Possibility-based in the sense that God is possible. And it's possible that God is the most powerful being ever. And it's possible that God is the most benevolent being ever... all those kinds of things.

But there will always be others (perhaps myself, even) who are geared towards more factually-based methods of spirituality.
That is, I do not gain any feelings of peace or comfort from thinking that God may possibly exist and may possibly be the most powerful and may possibly care about me and this world. I do, however, gain such spiritual feelings from certain facts, like the fact that no one knows what the afterlife is actually like, or the fact that no one knows if Gods really exist. These facts allow me to be feel justified and satisfied with my own ignorance on such matters.

Of course, if God's existence and benevolence and such can ever become a fact... I would find much happiness in such facts. However, while it remains only a possibility, I gain no such benefits. I do gain those same benefits through alternative facts, though, they just have nothing to do with God or religion.

The point of this thread is to:

1. Identify if there are any factually-based spiritual levels that I am unaware of that I can gain benefits from. If such things exist, obviously I would like to cure my ignorance

2. Identify that factually-based spiritual levels are just as valid or powerful as possibility-based spiritual levels. It doesn't matter what kind of spiritual feelings they are... what matters is the type of person gaining benefits from those feelings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 10-20-2009 2:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 2:49 AM Stile has responded
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 03-31-2017 3:51 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9432
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 25 of 166 (797152)
01-13-2017 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
10-20-2009 3:08 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
stile writes:

I'm not really worried about whether or not God exists. I'm more concerned with where I am in life now, and if there's anything I'm missing. If you believe that a relationship with God would provide something that cannot be obtained otherwise, please feel free to attempt a description of such a thing. So far, no one is able to identify anything that is unattainable without God anyway.

That is, I'm not calling any relationships with God useless. I'm only saying that a relationship with God is not necessary for me (and likely others) to have a level of spiritualism that is equal to or surpassing the level of spiritualism that comes from a relationship with God.


I have taken some time to reread what you have written on this topic, in addition to our discussion at Do We NEED God? I appreciate your honesty at being willing to accept something that you may be missing in your personal quest for self-actualization, adequate acknowledgment of such a Deity should One happen to exist (for the benefit of your family as well as yourself) and your willingness to engage in such dialogues with me.

One issue that I find relevant to reexamine and showcase is the issue of evidence-based thinking as a necessary prerequisite to belief.

stile writes:

Of course if God's existence and benevolence and such can ever become a fact... I would find much happiness in such facts.

In other words...and correct me if I am wrong---you basically claim that evidence would provide you with happiness.

So let me see if I have your position and basic argument correct. You once were a practicing Catholic who may or may not have known the God they worship, and yet you dutifully fulfilled your obligations as a Catholic until you came to the realization that you were as happy and content in your own brand of spirituality so that you know longer needed the franchise nor the promises marketed. You may have read the arguments between myself and Mr. jar and Mr. ringo. The basic argument which they use is that source is unimportant...God is a creation of human imagination anyway and if GOD exists, GOD exists...yet the source is irrelevant and the CONTENT (our daily behavior toward self and others) is the main trait. Would you also tend to agree with their argument?

My argument, fueled by what I have been taught as well as what I choose to believe individually, is that GOD exists, that we humans get to know GOD through Jesus Christ, and that the triunity is established due to the fact that Jesus (and only Jesus) and GOD are united through the manifestation and possession of One Holy Spirit. Thus...when Christians talk about getting saved or born again or enlightened, they are suggesting that this missing element in peoples lives is in Holy Communion with this One Spirit that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus have.

In contrast, you are proposing the idea that all individuals are different and thus why should all individuals be limited to seeking the same One Spirit. Am I close to stating this right?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 10-20-2009 3:08 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 01-15-2017 9:26 AM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 26 of 166 (797216)
01-15-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
01-13-2017 2:49 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

In other words...and correct me if I am wrong---you basically claim that evidence would provide you with happiness.

In a phrase... sure.
The same way that claiming belief provides some with happiness.

There are many details and specifics along with that, but we can use such phrases as generalizations.

You once were a practicing Catholic who may or may not have known the God they worship, and yet you dutifully fulfilled your obligations as a Catholic until you came to the realization that you were as happy and content in your own brand of spirituality so that you know longer needed the franchise nor the promises marketed. You may have read the arguments between myself and Mr. jar and Mr. ringo. The basic argument which they use is that source is unimportant...God is a creation of human imagination anyway and if GOD exists, GOD exists...yet the source is irrelevant and the CONTENT (our daily behavior toward self and others) is the main trait. Would you also tend to agree with their argument?

Seems close enough to me, yes.

My argument, fueled by what I have been taught as well as what I choose to believe individually, is that GOD exists, that we humans get to know GOD through Jesus Christ, and that the triunity is established due to the fact that Jesus (and only Jesus) and GOD are united through the manifestation and possession of One Holy Spirit. Thus...when Christians talk about getting saved or born again or enlightened, they are suggesting that this missing element in peoples lives is in Holy Communion with this One Spirit that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus have.

Yes, I understand this summary of your position.

In contrast, you are proposing the idea that all individuals are different and thus why should all individuals be limited to seeking the same One Spirit. Am I close to stating this right?

Not quite how I'd word it, but pretty much.
I would say it more: "...all individulas are different and thus why should all individuals be limited to seeking the same path to peace, harmony and growth."

My other issue would be with your wording of:

Thus...when Christians talk about getting saved or born again or enlightened, they are suggesting that this missing element in peoples lives is in Holy Communion with this One Spirit that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus have.

What is the "missing element" that is being spoken of?
What does Holy Communion with this One Spirit that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus have?

What happens to a person when they have it?
What happens to a person when they don't have it?

Such questions... and the current answer of "no one can identify a difference" and "there doesn't seem to be a difference" is exactly what drives my conclusion towards the idea that this One Spirit is simply a path for certain people to their own peace and not for all people.

There is no group of "true believers" that is happier, better off, functioning more fully... than others.
There is no group of atheists that do such things.
There is no group of any sort of religious or non-religious people that can be identified as "enlightened" or "better" than others.

Such observations lead me to the conclusion that any religious or non-religious inclinations are completely irrelevant to reality... and only relevant personally.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 01-13-2017 2:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 01-15-2017 12:03 PM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9432
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 27 of 166 (797222)
01-15-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Stile
01-15-2017 9:26 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
stile writes:

......all individulas are different and thus why should all individuals be limited to seeking the same path to peace, harmony and growth?

there may be many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same top. My argument concerning One Spirit is that there is but one. every human on the planet doesnt simply have their own little relativistic spirit. Perhaps we should examine your goals of peace,harmony, and growth.

What are we at peace from?

Does harmony mean acceptance of everyones uniqueness? Does this uniqueness prevent humans from sharing a similar goal?

As for growth...what are we growing towards? What are we leaving behind?

stile writes:

What is the "missing element" that is being spoken of?
What does Holy Communion with this One Spirit that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus have?

Perhaps we should discuss the similarities and differences between harmony and unity.

also...if you will...read this verse in John and tell me how it strikes you. Does it seem exclusive or inclusive? Does it seem like something that Gods representative might say or does it offend?

I realize you are not a believer, but I am interested in your opinion.

John 17 writes:


"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 01-15-2017 9:26 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 01-16-2017 9:31 AM Phat has responded
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 11:06 AM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2896
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 28 of 166 (797255)
01-16-2017 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
01-15-2017 12:03 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

Stile writes:

......all individulas are different and thus why should all individuals be limited to seeking the same path to peace, harmony and growth?

There may be many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same top.

My point is that I think there are many mountains, each with their own many paths, all leading to the same heights.

My argument concerning One Spirit is that there is but one. every human on the planet doesnt simply have their own little relativistic spirit.

I understand your idea of such a thing.
I don't believe it.
My understanding is that there is not One Spirit. There is not One Anything with many facets. There are simply different things.

What are we at peace from?

Do you think there is really one answer to this question?
To me, the answer to this question is different for pretty much everyone.

For myself, I'm looking for peace from confusion. Clarity.
For someone who's starving to death, I'd guess they would be looking for peace from hunger.
For someone who's in a war-torn area of the world, I'd guess they would be looking for peace from anger, hatred and war.

I doubt extremely highly that there could ever be "one specific answer" to such a question that would satisfy every different person alive.

Does harmony mean acceptance of everyone's uniqueness?

No.
It means being able to live together without killing each other, without taking advantage of each other, without hurting each other.
You do not need to accept everyone's uniqueness in order to respect them as an equal person searching for peace.

Does this uniqueness prevent humans from sharing a similar goal?

Quite often, yes.

As for growth...what are we growing towards?

Whatever you'd like as long as it does not include hurting others.
Again, like your first question, there will not be a single answer that satisfies everyone. Such an idea is laughably silly if you have the slightest notion that different people like different things.

What are we leaving behind?

Whatever you'd like as long as it does not include hurting others.
Again, like your first question, there will not be a single answer that satisfies everyone.

You seem to think that somewhere, deep down, all people all want the same thing.
I don't think this is true.

I think that some people are similar and some are different.
I think this is rather obvious.

I think it's a fool's errand to attempt to force people to "all be the same" in any aspect.

Perhaps we should discuss the similarities and differences between harmony and unity.

To me:

Harmony is functioning as a single unit with a single motivation and a single goal.
Unity is "functioning" as a single unit.

...read this verse in John and tell me how it strikes you.

To me, it strikes me as John is very happy and content and wants others to share in the same.
Unfortunately, he seems to think that the only way is to do this through God. Reality begs to differ.
John seems very naďve to the fact that people are not all the same.
He seems to think that everyone feels things the way he feels things, and that everyone thinks the way he thinks.
Such an idea leads John to believe that all everyone needs to do is follow his reasoning and they too will be happy and content.

The sentiment is a great idea - having all people be happy and content.
The proposed method for bringing that idea into reality is fundamentally flawed - not all people are like John. John seems to miss this point entirely, and is hopelessly stuck wanting others to be exactly like him while being unable to understand that... people are different.

Does it seem exclusive or inclusive?

It seems like John wants it to be inclusive. But he does say some strange things like "9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." This gives me pause in saying that John is entirely inclusive. Why not pray for the world? What is it about the entire world that John's afraid of?

Does it seem like something that Gods representative might say or does it offend?

Ha ha
No, it doesn't offend me at all. And yes, I can see a representative of God saying such things, for sure.
It certainly seems like John wants something good - for everyone to be happy and content.
He just seems a little naďve to the facts of the world, is all. Or maybe ignoring them on purpose?

John's idea may work for small groups of people - a classroom, a family, a wee town.
But that's only because people in such small groups tend to have very similar ways of thinking/feeling. It's likely that "all people" in these kinds of small groups may already have an affinity to the way John is, and agree with him. A few success stories like that would "go to John's head" and make him think that since he got 20 "strangers" to agree with him... then everyone must!

John seems entirely ignorant to the fact that there are more people in the world than the 10 good friends he talks to on a regular basis.
And that those different people may very well be entirely different from John and his friends.

John seems the kind of chap to visit another place, and assume that everyone he talks to is exactly like him but just with "a few quirks" instead of making an attempt to get to know the locals and the local customs to see what, indeed, they're actually like.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 01-15-2017 12:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 12:41 PM Stile has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13197
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 29 of 166 (797281)
01-16-2017 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
01-15-2017 12:03 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:

there may be many paths up the mountain but they all lead to the same top.


Are we going up the mountain or down?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 01-15-2017 12:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 01-22-2017 8:23 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9432
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 30 of 166 (797294)
01-16-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Stile
01-16-2017 9:31 AM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Stile writes:

You seem to think that somewhere, deep down, all people all want the same thing.
I don't think this is true.

Actually, I believe that all people do not want the same thing...except in that it be their own thing. Perhaps the choice should remain free rather than forced.

All people may well need the same thing. I realize that you disagree. Consider the following scripture pieces parts (that jar may consider out of context)

Proverbs 14:12NKJV writes:

There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

We are taught that many will seek the broad path and few will find the narrow path. The whole analogy of many mountains, many paths sounds a bit like pantheism to me...that there are many ways and in fact many destinations and after all who is to judge?

As to the reason that I consider this one way that I have chosen (or been shown) to be the best path I cannot say.

I believe that God finds us...we do not find Him.

As far as our willingness to accept Him should He knock, I can only respond by quoting Paul.

Rom 3:10-18 writes:


As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Perhaps Paul felt that everyone needed to believe as he did.
I probably feel that Paul had an excellent point, though out of respect for you and your counter argument, I remain reluctantly open minded on this.

Perhaps as you have said, I need to examine why I feel so strongly about this.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 01-16-2017 9:31 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Stile, posted 01-17-2017 11:16 AM Phat has responded

  
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