The Big Bang and the visible past.

Here's what you are missing: Whereas you consider the above, science you reject/miss that the eternal intelligent designer model of the universe should also be considered a possible/viable/debatable science model.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Somewhat as your science alleges "models of the Universe where there is no concept of 'before' the Big Bang" ........no outside of for expansion and no time in which to have originated.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Apart from a 'just so' story for why there is anything at all, what models could derive from 'goddidit'? Yah sure, Larni, like IDist eternal universe science proponents would like to know and understand the appearance that the BB poofed from nothing. Whether or not we all acknowledge the other's interpretation of observed phenomena, there is supportive evidence for both arguments. Lol. Nothing eternal, by definition, ever created itself. That is at least equally scientific and possible as the universe having no before, no time or space in which to have happened, no outside of in which to expand and no time in which it could have happened. LoL. The concept of higher intelligent entities in the universe is from all cultures for all of human history relative to all levels of human cultural intelligence, including todays ID scientists.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Posting something of some significance in response would be the best way for you to help anyone, Hunter. This is nothing but ranted yada.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

You tell me to shut up, due to incomprehensiveness after this? Message 26 You expect me to comprehend your model of no before, no outside of, no space and time, when I, science peon Buz must define for you, the EvC renouned Cavediver, terms like ethernal (I assume eternal), intelligent?I maintain my Message 24

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Blindly asserted allegement, void of evidence. Say what? Nothing eternal need be created. Can you comprehend that? And just what of any substance in this one-er message has been intelligently contributed scientifically by Larni?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I beg to differ. The BB does not define terms like eternal, designer and intelligent just because the BB is presumed to be temporal. Cavediver has the intelligence to determine the meaning of eternity, intelligence and designer relative to the context of the message to which he was responding.Cavediver knew knew full well my intentions. The renouned scientist sports in making a fool out of the ole man. He should not fool with a fool until he's certain (abe: he's fooling with a) fool. Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted, clarifying wording

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I understand that, but the terms which Cavediver called for the meaning of were eternal, intelligent and designer. Scientifically or otherwise, the BB does not define any of these, whether or not they are used in conjunction with the topic of BB or whether they are used in conjunction with another scientific topic.My application of the term was relative to an eternal intelligent designer which allegedly exists in a non-temperal eternal universe. The context of my message left no question as to my intentions. Cavediver full well knew that. His condescending attitude towards lay folk sometimes un-necessarily muddies up constructive dialog.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Oh, so now we're into the definition of definition. My understanding of the word definition is that things being defined do not determine the definition of things pertaining to the thing being defined so as to accomodate POVs of BB groups. The BB allegedly defines itself so as for it's proponents to change the meaning of terms like eternity, intelligence and design, so as to absolve it's proponents of any need to explain the mysterious aspects of it.The ID Bible, by this token, defines anything pertaining to itself for interpretation of anything pertaing to it to accomodate Biblical POV groups. Dictionary definitions need not be applied to anything Biblical. Edited by Buzsaw, : Reword message title

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Debunking opposing POVs relative to topic is what my input has been about. It's high time for someone to aire countering arguments for the redifinition of basic long established word meanings by the secularistic constituency, so as to accomodate otherwise unexplainable and unobservable aspects of the singularity which allegedly preciptated the BB.Myths? Please! Asside from redefinition of words, the BB singularity event definably equates the BB, pre-empted by the alleged singularity.Btw, you're highly overstating my limited imput in the sicence fora. You should know by now that I avoid those which are beyond my ability to engage.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Please reread carefully and get back to me regarding what you are unable to comprehend.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Does the BB allegedly defining aspects of itself, as advocated by Cavediver, match or redefine the long standing dictionary definitions of these word terms?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

So long as they/you redefine eternity to accomodate a temporal universe, yes it is mythical magic. There is nothing temporal about the true definition of eternity.OTOH they/you think I should shoehorn your magic into the redefined concept of eternity, and other terms applied to aspects of science and logic.The same goes with intelligent and design. You/they would, I assume, define intelligent design as something that emerged void of intelligent design, naturally from premordial non-living soup. That's sheer magic, imo, whereas an eternal designer/manager of the universe accomodates the long standing definition and accomodates most observed environs around us in that void of management, things decay and fall apart whereas things designed create order out of chaos.Bottom line. Their's/yours implicates the magic whereas mine is logical and better explains the thermodynamic laws, real life observed, design and intelligence, etc without the need to redefine these word terms.In spite of all of the above, secularists scoff Biblical ID as ideocy and unscientific nonsense, unfit for the science fora.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

My apologies, Cavediver. It was NWR who's message appears to convey the notion that the Universe defines these terms.Do you agree with NWR's Message 40 and Message 43?That's been one of my concerns, that rigorously necessitates dedifinition of words to accomodate impossible concepts in real life eyeball observations. Thus the need to resort to complicated, often little understood and debatable mathmatical models. Come on, Cavediver, after all of these years, you know full well that the Buzsaw eternal intelligent designer is Jehovah, the Biblical supreme creator. You should be aware of all of the corrobrating evidence I have cited relative to his existence, whether or not you ascribe to it.As well, you know full well that by non-temporal eternal universe, I mean just that; that the space, time and all of the existing energy in the universe has eternally existed, managed by the eternal designer/creator. I'm sure you've known all of this for a long time, yet make an issue of it every time I allude to it.This is what I meant by my allegation that you sometimes (I say sometimes) un-necessarily muddy up constructive dialog.Having posted the above, forgive me if I have undermined the valuable contributions which you faithfully and consistently render to the cite in order to inform and edify us all, whether or not we can ever become compatible on the issues.Over the years, it's been members like you who apprise folk like me on the nuts & bolts relative to concepts which science ascribes to. OTO, may Jehovah's enlightment come upon you and yours, so as for you to partake of his blessings and eternal life in his eternal universe.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Jar, fyi, intelligent design in implicated in the DNA information, so in that vein, it is implicated in nature. The problem, however, is that observation of the real world does not follow that model. It follows the model of order to disorder. Disorder left to itself is generally does not becoming more orderly and complex in design. It bodes contrary to what is presumed to be the visible past To prick and burst the thread bubble, mathmatically enginered models do not produce a visible past. They are debatable and complicated products of scientific visionaries who feverishly work to propagate a visible past in the elite secularistic (IDists need not apply) journals, accademia and all avenues of media.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.