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Author Topic:   Has natural selection really been tested and verified?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 96 of 302 (536988)
11-26-2009 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by lyx2no
11-26-2009 2:14 AM


Re: Still
Lyx2no writes:
I don't know whether anyone has bothered to mention it to you but mutations are irrelevant to natural selection.
I know that Darwin's idea of natural selection was that some life forms that were best suited to the environment would survive better then those that didnt. But I thought that modern evolutionists taught that as species spread and became isolated, natural selection would choose the ones whose gene mutations made them most fit for their environment and eventually they developed into new species.
(ie macroevolution)
You seem to be saying that Mutations are not required to form new species, is that correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by lyx2no, posted 11-26-2009 2:14 AM lyx2no has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Huntard, posted 11-26-2009 8:02 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 98 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-26-2009 8:16 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 99 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-26-2009 8:20 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 101 by Wounded King, posted 11-26-2009 8:50 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 139 of 302 (537101)
11-27-2009 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by lyx2no
11-26-2009 8:50 AM


Re: Why?
lyx2no writes:
Natural selection will work on any variety from any source that differentially effect the reproductive success of the individual members.
ok, so If i have a baby which survives, thats natural selection taking place???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by lyx2no, posted 11-26-2009 8:50 AM lyx2no has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Iblis, posted 11-27-2009 4:42 AM Peg has replied
 Message 165 by Parasomnium, posted 11-27-2009 12:37 PM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 140 of 302 (537102)
11-27-2009 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Wounded King
11-26-2009 8:50 AM


Re: Speciation
WoundedKing writes:
If for some reason the population becomes divided then genetic drift may cause these incompatible genetic traits to become fixed in different populations. In that case if they consolidated into one region again we would expect to see little if any successful breeding between the populations and we would consider them to have become distinct species.
could this happen in human populations and has it happened?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Wounded King, posted 11-26-2009 8:50 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Wounded King, posted 11-27-2009 4:27 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 141 of 302 (537103)
11-27-2009 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Huntard
11-26-2009 10:06 AM


Re: Here's mine
Huntard writes:
Natural selection is the process by which heritable traits that make it more likely for an organism to survive
whats the differnce between this and mutation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Huntard, posted 11-26-2009 10:06 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Granny Magda, posted 11-27-2009 12:34 AM Peg has replied
 Message 144 by Huntard, posted 11-27-2009 2:05 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 143 of 302 (537110)
11-27-2009 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Granny Magda
11-27-2009 12:34 AM


Re: Here's mine
what is it with 'us'
sheesh
what is it with you?
Huntard attempted to show that mutation and natural selection are different
his sentence stated that natural selection produces 'inheritable traits'
My question, which you failed to answer, was what is the difference between these 'inheritable traits' and mutations?
If you cant answer, then dont.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Granny Magda, posted 11-27-2009 12:34 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Huntard, posted 11-27-2009 2:14 AM Peg has replied
 Message 146 by Granny Magda, posted 11-27-2009 2:35 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 148 of 302 (537125)
11-27-2009 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Huntard
11-27-2009 2:14 AM


Re: Here's mine
Huntard writes:
No it doesn't. It states that it makes those heritable traits more common, not that it produces them.
ok so this takes me back to my original question to you
What is the difference between mutations and inheritable traits?
You said that mutations are changes in dna. You also said that NS favors those inheritable traits.
So, are 'mutations' the same 'inheritable traits' you are refering to?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Huntard, posted 11-27-2009 2:14 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Huntard, posted 11-27-2009 4:43 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 151 of 302 (537130)
11-27-2009 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Huntard
11-27-2009 4:43 AM


Re: Here's mine
Huntard writes:
No, the DNA is inheritable traits. Mutations are changes to those inheritable traits. When there are changes, NS starts to work on them, because the environment hasn't changed, but the traits of the individual have. Whether it is a positive or negative trait doesn't matter, NS will act upon it. It will also act when the environment changes, yet the traits remain the same.
ok, so there must be a lot of mutation occuring in order for there to be so much diveristy in life forms
Is this an accurate assumption?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Huntard, posted 11-27-2009 4:43 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Huntard, posted 11-27-2009 5:04 AM Peg has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 177 of 302 (537261)
11-28-2009 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Wounded King
11-27-2009 4:27 AM


Re: Speciation
Wounded King writes:
The possible exception is in the form of pre-mating isolation in behavioral rather than genetic terms since some insular ethnic groups prefer to keep marriages within their own populations. But this is a social rather than a biological barrier.
thats what im intersted in...biological barriers
and the reason is because if it occurs among other species and if its a part of evolution, then it would surely happen among humans too

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Wounded King, posted 11-27-2009 4:27 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Coyote, posted 11-28-2009 2:04 AM Peg has replied
 Message 224 by herebedragons, posted 11-28-2009 10:14 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 178 of 302 (537262)
11-28-2009 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Iblis
11-27-2009 4:42 AM


entertaining and educational
that was an entertaining read
and i mean that in all sincerity
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Iblis, posted 11-27-2009 4:42 AM Iblis has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 180 of 302 (537277)
11-28-2009 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Coyote
11-28-2009 2:04 AM


Re: Speciation
Coyote writes:
There are changes among the various human groups; the Human Races classes I took detailed a lot of these changes.
But none resulted in speciation; all human populations are of one species and fully capable of interbreeding.
do you see speciation occuring any time soon and if it were to happen, what would be the precursor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Coyote, posted 11-28-2009 2:04 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Coyote, posted 11-28-2009 3:24 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 183 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 4:37 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 187 of 302 (537299)
11-28-2009 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by Bolder-dash
11-28-2009 4:37 AM


Re: Speciation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 4:37 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 188 of 302 (537300)
11-28-2009 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Dr Adequate
11-28-2009 5:10 AM


Re: Back to Basics
DrAdequate writes:
It's evolution: it's a change in the composition of the gene pool. It's not the evolution on the scale that creationists turn blue in the face trying to deny, but that doesn't stop it from being evolution.
why do they call it 'evolution' and not some other term which more accuarately describes the adaptation of the finchs to a changed environment?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2009 5:10 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2009 5:40 AM Peg has replied
 Message 194 by Wounded King, posted 11-28-2009 6:20 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 190 of 302 (537308)
11-28-2009 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dr Adequate
11-28-2009 5:40 AM


Re: Back to Basics
DrAdequate writes:
Evolution is the accurate term. There is no "more accurate" term.
well then that explains why we creationist get all hot and bothered about the term 'evolution'
its change has been so subtle over the years that we think of it in its original form, namely darwinian evolution of the species.
that all creatures evolved from pre existing creatures, including humans. Perhaps if the new format was publicised and explained about how it is different to its original meaning, we'd be more accepting of the term.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2009 5:40 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2009 5:59 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 196 of 302 (537325)
11-28-2009 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Dr Adequate
11-28-2009 5:59 AM


Re: Back to Basics
DrAdequate writes:
That's still what it means.
The finch species under discussion was, patently, evolving.
What did they evolve into?
and why did the research of Peter Grant and Lisle Gibbs see a reversal of that 'evolution' when the climate changed. They found that the beaks of later generations changed again and again going from large beaks to small depending on the climate. And also, why did they see that some of the different 'species' could interbreed and produce offspring?? That surely indicates that they were still the same species even though there were observable changes.
the finches were still finches weren't they?
DrAdequate writes:
Evolution is any heritable change to a lineage.
but surely you can see how this is quite different from Darwin who went beyond small observable changes. He wrote that all the millions of species alive were the descendants of just a few creatures. He said they slowly evolved by extremely slight modifications.
you are speaking about one very small part of a bigger picture. Creationists are looking at the bigger picture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2009 5:59 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2009 7:28 AM Peg has replied
 Message 208 by lyx2no, posted 11-28-2009 8:15 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 214 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-28-2009 8:44 AM Peg has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


(3)
Message 197 of 302 (537326)
11-28-2009 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Bolder-dash
11-28-2009 6:17 AM


Re: Back to Basics
we usually have fairly civil discussions here and it makes evc worth coming back to
please dont throw a spanner in the works by being rude
We dont all agree, thats what makes this board work...but it wont work if it becomes a catfight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 6:17 AM Bolder-dash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Bolder-dash, posted 11-28-2009 6:48 AM Peg has replied

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