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Author Topic:   Open letter to conservatives
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 17 of 122 (565849)
06-21-2010 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Artemis Entreri
06-21-2010 12:21 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
I could give a shit if you are gay, or muslim, or athiest, and want to marry each other in CA, because I don't nor ever will live there. You want to murder your foetus, go ahead its none of my business.
Why would you care even in your own state? or are you saying you don't at all?
You say:
quote:
I don't like to mind anyone's business but my own.
Cool.
But then you say:
quote:
how is it any of my business what people in California or Alaksa want to do in thier states?
But would you agree that, how is it any of your business what anyone in any state does? Because, as you say, "I don't like to mind anyone's business but my own."
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-21-2010 12:21 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2010 1:03 PM onifre has replied
 Message 19 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-21-2010 1:05 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 21 of 122 (565863)
06-21-2010 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2010 1:03 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
I think he's saying that what would effect him are policies in his own state (Virginia).
Ok, I got that, but here's where it doesn't make sense to me.
He mentions that he doesn't care if a gay person wishes to marry in California (or anywhere else, other than Virginia), or if you'd like to abort a pregnancy in Cali or else where.
My question is, why care if they wanted to get married or abort a pregnancy in Virginia?
It doesn't affect him in any way, whether it be someone in California, Alaska or Virginia. These type of social policies don't affect anyone but the individual it concerns.
Because he's subject to a policy enacted by his state, it therefore is his business because it effects him.
Agreed. Something relating to state taxes or things of that nature, sure, it obviously affects him. But gay marriage and abortion anywhere but in his house wouldn't affect him. So why care in either case?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2010 1:03 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2010 8:13 AM onifre has replied
 Message 24 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-22-2010 11:20 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 22 of 122 (565864)
06-21-2010 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Artemis Entreri
06-21-2010 1:05 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
I do care what happens in my state because it affect me and my business.
Fair enough, and I agree - things that affect you directly should concern you.
But how does gay marriage or abortion (or policies like these) affect you or your business?
I do care what happens in my state.
But only because it could directly affect you, like say a new tax increase or some frivolous pending by you state reps. Fine, concern yourself all you want.
But a gay person getting married or a teenager that terminates a pregancy in California, Alaska or Virginia doesn't affect you in any way. So why concern yourself with it at all?
PS. I love Charlie Daniels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-21-2010 1:05 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 06-22-2010 11:36 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 30 of 122 (566020)
06-22-2010 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Hyroglyphx
06-22-2010 8:13 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Perhaps he's one of those people who think allowing gay marriage will cause some sort of upheavel in society.
Right, but then he should be concerned for all of the US in that case, not just Virginia. Or, not care at all even in Virginia.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2010 8:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 33 of 122 (566024)
06-22-2010 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Artemis Entreri
06-22-2010 11:20 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
I think this is classic Oni, getting hung up on a small part of something and then thinking he is disagreeing with some one only to find out 10 posts later that he is not.
I didn't know there was a "classic Oni" way of doing things, but cool.
I just asked you a question pertaining to your comment that you didn't care if gays got married in Cali or aborted a pregancy, but that you did care in Virginia because you lived there. You said that, not me. I was curious about it so I challenged it, because, this is a debate forum.
Should I say this is classic Artemis Entreri trying to backpedal and avoid confronting exactly what he said?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-22-2010 11:20 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-22-2010 6:18 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 34 of 122 (566026)
06-22-2010 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taz
06-22-2010 11:36 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Not knowing who Charlie Daniels is, I'm assuming it's some dude that you have found to be your true love. Congrats! So, when did you come out and when can we attend your gay wedding?
Are you crazy? Rrhain and I...oops...I mean "Charlie Daniels" and I aren't getting married. Marriage blows, we do too, but in a good way.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 06-22-2010 11:36 AM Taz has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 51 of 122 (566141)
06-23-2010 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Artemis Entreri
06-22-2010 6:18 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
why don't you show me EXACTLY what i said?
Sure:
AE writes:
how is it any of my business what people in California or Alaksa want to do in thier states? why should I have a say in it? I could give a shit if you are gay, or muslim, or athiest, and want to marry each other in CA, because I don't nor ever will live there. You want to murder your foetus, go ahead its none of my business.
What I got from this is that you don't care what takes place in other states but that you do care what happens in your state, right?
My question was, why do you care if these things happen in your state also? You were specific, you picked gay marriage, threw in an atheist, and refered to abortion as "murdering a fetus." You referenced these words in a pussy-ass, passive aggressive manner showing off your right-wing stupidity... that's why I challenged you on it.
Your reply was Message 19:
quote:
I do care what happens in my state because it affect me and my business.
Hyro wrote:
quote:
I think he's saying that what would effect him are policies in his own state (Virginia). Because he's subject to a policy enacted by his state, it therefore is his business because it effects him. But if he's not a California resident, the affairs of Californians don't effect, nor does he care.
And you said: "sweet somebody got it. "
So your response is that, only things that happen in your state concern you because it can affect you - and I get that. But the examples you give of gay marriage and abortion (or as you called it, "mudering a fetus") wouldn't affect you even in your own state, so why the fuck bring those up as examples? And the way you use the examples, saying that you don't care what happens in Cali because you won't ever live there, indicates that you DO care if these things take place in VA because you do live there.
Now you want to back pedal and pretend that I've misunderstood something, fine, I don't care. You want to resort to name calling, cool, I don't give a fuck either. It would be better if you would man up and defend what you meant, or explain it better, but that would mean you'd have to break out of your typical passive aggressive way of debating, so I won't get my hopes up.
Onifre are you male or female IRL?
I'm the guy who bangs your mom when your dad is out blowing men.
you debate like a bitch.
Oh look, another internet tough guy. This looks like the punchline to the joke, "What did one nerd say to the other nerd?"
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-22-2010 6:18 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-23-2010 9:50 AM onifre has replied
 Message 53 by dronestar, posted 06-23-2010 10:07 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 10:43 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 54 of 122 (566151)
06-23-2010 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Hyroglyphx
06-23-2010 9:50 AM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
Speaking which, why am I not seeing you on the Last Comic Standing?
It was all political this year. Well, I shouldn't say it like that cos it makes it sound bad. This year only people with solid careers in comedy who have good management made it. Most of the comics selected already have a half-hour Comedy Central Presents, it wasn't for new faces this time. And they only held auditions in NYC and LA, and it was rumored that open-call comics wouldn't get selected. Only comics that had representation would get selected. The lines and casting calls are just to fill TV time.
Festivals is what my goals are, NYC Underground Comedy festival, Montreal Comedy festival, Boston, Melborne, AUS, The Vegas festival - that's what I'm submitting tapes for. LCS is to take comics that are already headliners and bring them to the mainstream, I'm about 5 years away from that.
But look for Mike DeStefano to win the whole thing. That's the rumor.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-23-2010 9:50 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-23-2010 12:16 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 62 of 122 (566183)
06-23-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by New Cat's Eye
06-23-2010 10:43 AM


Re: affecting me
I think by the nature of being conservative, we assume that everything is going to have some effect so we're weary of any change in the first place. Probably even more weary of things we just plain don't like.
It must suck to be conservative.
Either way, according to AE he doesn't care. Apparently he's pro-choice (even though he used the phrase "murdering a fetus," and threw in atheist and muslims when saying he didn't care about gays getting married -- but only in California because it doesn't affect him.
My question was, how could it affect him if the same things happened in Virginia? The same arguments he would raise as to why it doesn't affect him if they're in Cali would be the same argument for why it wouldn't affect him in Virginia. The only difference is distance. Gays are still together, a paper making it legal in Cali or in Virgina affects no one at all. Same with abortions.
I was just asking for clarity.
Although, that might work on a drunk chick after a show
...and it does.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 10:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 12:57 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 63 of 122 (566184)
06-23-2010 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Hyroglyphx
06-23-2010 12:16 PM


Re: Know what a NeoCon is?
If you get to Boston, I'll take a 45 minute trip down there to watch you perform. Then we can get trashed and hit on a bunch of drunk bitches.
Word! It'll be in November - I'll send you a message when/if I get selected.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-23-2010 12:16 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 65 of 122 (566191)
06-23-2010 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by New Cat's Eye
06-23-2010 12:57 PM


Re: affecting me
Its not so bad... I'm not broke and uneducated, that's pretty sweet.
What does that have to do with being conservative? or what does that have to do with being able to adjust to change?
I think abortion is morally wrong and is "murdering a fetus" but I'm pro-choice.
What about spontaneous abortions or aborting an embryo, before it's even a fetus... how can these be considered murder of a fetus?
Weird though, at least to me, that you would be pro the choice to comit murder.
Everything that happens in your state has some effect on you.
Give me an example of how 2 gay people signing a piece of paper in your state effects you.
Likewise give me an example of how someone having an abortion in your state effects you.
I here you saying it but I just don't see how it can. Abortions take place every day, ALL of them without my knowledge. How on earth am I effected by it?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 12:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 2:21 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 70 of 122 (566237)
06-23-2010 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
06-23-2010 2:21 PM


Re: affecting me
General blanket statements like that don't ever stand up to scrutiny. Don't mean I won't say it though!
I expect no less, dude.
We don't really have a legal person here that murder has been commited against.
I agree, and to me that's the rational opinion arrived at from a logical perspective free of emotions. However, at no point then could it be said that someone murdered a fetus, embryo or what have you, other than just to add a death-tone to the matter. Murder is an derived from a legal stand point.
Killed a fetus, sure. Just like, "I killed the plant."
At the end of the day, its better for that choice to be available, even if I don't like the smell of it.
Cool. I like there to be a choice because honestly I don't care what happens to a fetus. The only fetus that has ever concerned me have been the two that were in my ex-wife 13 and 11 years ago.
Other that, I usually think more about how sad it is that living human beings (children up to adults) are starving and die each day. That actually bothers me a lot.
Now, you have claimed that it would not have an effect, so where's the support for that?
Not exactly, I claimed (predict) that the same argument for why it doesn't affect you if the person lives in California would be the same argument for why it doesn't concern you if the person lives in your state. But I still haven't gotten the argument as to why it would be different in another state than in your own state (from AE) so I can only predict that it's the same for now.
But what you're asking me to do is to prove a negative, which I can't do - you know that.
First thing we'd have to establish is what would be considered an "effect." To me, living in a state where abortions are legal, I don't see any effects on my life. Abortions take place everyday here in Florida and I'm completely oblivious to them. That's proof for me that there is no effect from it.
Also, I've been to all the states where gay (same-sex) marriage is legal (Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Washington, D.C.) - before and after the law - and see absolutely no difference in the states, or the people I know who live there. This is proof to me.
But again, you've asked me to prove a negative, which I can't do, so this is what I'm going with as proof.
You're a part of the culture. As the culture goes through changes in what it feels is okay to do, its inevitable that it will have some affect on you.
Ok, but then you'd be against it all together, not just in your state. It's the same culture, minus a few local nuances.
But what are the effects?
Lets take the Civil Right's movement. It had the effect that now blacks drink from the same water fountain as whites do. Some whites had to "deal with that," right? Another effect was integrated schools, that's something else some whites had to deal with.
Now, what would be an example of an effect from same-sex marriage or abortion? Just one example from each.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 5:04 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 74 of 122 (566340)
06-24-2010 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by New Cat's Eye
06-23-2010 5:04 PM


Re: affecting me
You're claiming there's not gonna be an effect. And you're basing it on incredulity because you can't think of what an effect might be. That doesn't mean there isn't gonna be one.
In those two quotes, yes, that's what I'm claiming. But my over-all point was that there is no reason to not care what happens in Cali because you don't live there, and then care about your own state with social issues like same-sex marriage and abortion, because, the argument for why Cali doesn't effect you/AE is the same argument as to why it happening in his own state won't effect him.
I hope that made sense.
What I mean by "there is no effect" is, there is no effect in the same sense that Cali doesn't effect him in Virginia.
I wouldn't say that the culture of California is the same as, say, Arkansas. If fact, they're quite different.
Not at all. There is plenty of "country folk" in California and there are plenty of artsy liberals in Arkansas. You're picking the places in California that the media and TV show us, but that's not all of California at all. By a long shot. You get out into the northern part of California and you'll have no idea you're in what you conceptually think of as "California."
Now, you can zoom out and say the US is one big culture, and try to continue your argument, but that's glossing over the whole point of looking at the states individually and as different cultures with different issues. Likewise, you could zoom in and see differences between various counties and argue for differences there and say the state level is too zoomed out. But this is the United States of America, where we draw the line at the state level and then unite ourselves from there.
Certain issues like abortion, same-sex marriage - just like civil rights and the women's liberation movement - aren't just state issues and effect the nation as a whole. Laws dealing with these social issues aren't made based on a cultural acceptance of it, they are made because it is the fair and proper thing to do. Just because the culture of the south didn't want blacks in their schools doesn't mean the culture has the right to stick to that, and it definitely doesn't give them majority rule over the suffering minorities.
Abortion: reduction in the personhood attributed to unborn people resulting in less humanity, in general, towards future generations.
How does it happening legally in California not have an effect in Virginia, if you are claiming it effects in general all of humanity?
If it effects all of humanity then California should be a concern as well. But if it actually doesn't have this catistrophic effect on humanity, and is in fact unevidenced non-sense, then it can be ignored as an action that has no evidenced effect on humanity and all of it's many diverse cultures.
So now the question is, is that non-sense or a solid case?
I'm not denying the potential for ridiculous claims on how abortion or same-sex marriage can effect society, just as I'm sure there where many ridiculous claims on how ending segregation or giving women their rights would effect society in a negative way. I get that people who fear change will make shit up. But then that was my point for asking for an example of an effect; it'll show how unevidenced these effects are.
Even you said:
quote:
I don't necessarily totally agree with them
Gay Marriage: breakdown of traditional family values and/or the standard family unit resulting in less formal and possibly less stable family structures that children rely on for social growth.
Here again, it would be the breakdown of the entire American family, and not just the breakdown of Virginia families because of their unique culture.
I'm trying to get across the kinds of things I think other, more strongly, conservative people might think.
Righhhhttttt
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-23-2010 5:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-24-2010 10:38 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 78 of 122 (566352)
06-24-2010 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Artemis Entreri
06-24-2010 10:25 AM


Re: mostly for CS, Qni, and DR.A
The repetition required around here to get your point across is tiring.
Maybe you should take a look at how you get your point across, if you're running into this kind of misunderstanding too much.
Killing infants, and homosexual marriage does not concern, no matter how I say it and no matter what you think I am trying to say.
You aren't concerned with the killing of infants? Even I who don't give a shit about anything care about the killing of infants.
like legalizing weed, and abolishing gun control,
A pothead who is concerned with guns and abolishing gun control? ...only in Virginia I guess. That's awesome, what a great combination. If there's two things that are fun to do in Virginia is smoke weed and shoot shit without federal regulations. Actually there is a third thing to do in Virginia that's fun as hell - pack up and get the fuck out of Virginia.
I do not know how to better explain it to you. It seems like other people understand me, which led me to think that you are just pretending not to get it.
What Hyro explained I understood, and CS is arguing for the fact that it does effect you. So neither of them "got" anything that I don't get. I'm not pretending. The debate I'm having with CS is the one I thought I'd have with you.
LOL. Where did I hear that before? Do you get your material like Carlos MenSTEALia?
It's cute to watch non-comics refer to Carlos as a joke theif because you watched one youtube video and now you think you're "in the know." MenSTEALia...wow, did Rogan tell you to say that? Hackkkkkk
Abortion is murder and morally wrong, but I would not vote to take away someone else’s choice.
Holy shittttt. You would not vote to take away someone's right to murder? Dude, you're the last person that should be smoking weed and playing with firearms! Please. Murder is illegal, no one has the right to do it.
But abortion is not murder, that's why it's not about the right to "murder."
That is libertarianism
No, that's insanity. Libertarianism says nothing about the freedom to comit murder. You've hijacked the word, like most so-called libertarians these days, to mean something totally different from what it originally stood for.
Being a Neo-Nazi is bad IMHO, but they have the same right to march peacefully down the street to demonstrate their beliefs just as, other crazy people, like the million mom march does, and me and the crazy NRA guys do as well.
Yes, but no one is given the right to comit murder.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-24-2010 10:25 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-24-2010 4:28 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2941 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 80 of 122 (566358)
06-24-2010 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by New Cat's Eye
06-24-2010 10:38 AM


Re: affecting me
I am a part of my state and everything that happens here has an effect on me.
You would have to show me how two people of the same sex signing a piece of paper effects you.
If they're not at all different then the cultures of California and Arkansas are the same. I can't agree to that so we're approaching an impasse.
Culturally different how? There are conservatives in Cali and liberals in Arkansas, people who don't agree with same-sex marriage/people who do in both states, religious people/non-religious people, people who live in the country/people who live in the city... Where are the cultural differences?
You are not showing any.
Oni writes:
Certain issues like abortion, same-sex marriage - just like civil rights and the women's liberation movement - aren't just state issues and effect the nation as a whole.
CS writes:
You're assuming that which you're trying to prove.
How are they different?
Because they're different states with different cultures.
If the people of Arkansas need to rely on a more traditional family structure then they'd be affected by gay marriage more than California where homosexuality has already become an accepted part of the culture.
This is a characterization of Arkansas and Cali that is just not true. California voted against gay marriage which means they value traditional family values, just as much as Arkansas. You are describing small sub-cultures like in LA or the beach areas, this is NOT California as a whole. Likewise, there is plenty of gay sex in Arkansas and lots of non-traditional shit - just look at their news.
The American culture is the same throughout the nation, every state has pockets of every different culture.
Oni writes:
Here again, it would be the breakdown of the entire American family, and not just the breakdown of Virginia families because of their unique culture.
CS writes:
Again, you're assuming that when you should be showing that.
How are the families in Virgina different?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-24-2010 10:38 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Artemis Entreri, posted 06-24-2010 4:09 PM onifre has replied

  
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