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| Author | Topic: Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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ICANT Member  Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: It was not my question whether it was mentioned or not. My question was could a particular women be "deduced" by you from the verse ? I thought my answer gave an unequivocal No answer.
jaywill writes: The question was whether one women could be deduced from the passage or not. I didn't ask if that was the only deduction one could make. On this point I am still puzzled as to your belief. Here is your question.
quote: Short answer NO. Explanation: The woman created in Genesis 1:27 is never said to be the FIRST MOTHER or the MOTHER OF ALL OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. The word Eve was used 4 times in the Bible.
quote: The Hebrew word chay in Genesis 3:20 translated of all living means living. 'Of all' is added by the translators.
jaywill writes: Either she is indicated in Genesis 1:26 or the women in 1:26 would have to be her descendents. But since 1:26,27 refers to the creation of human male and female, my guess is that Adam's wife Eve is indicated in 1:26.
And you guess wrong. The woman called Eve did not exist in Genesis 1:2-2:3. The woman called Eve existed in Chapter 2, 3, and 4 of Genesis, and was formed from the rib of the man who was formed from the dust of the ground.
jaywill writes: How do you know that? It simply says that God created man in His image and according to His likeness. Nothing is said about the method of creation. Silence as to the method does not mean the woman could not have been made as described in chapter 2. I know the woman created in Genesis 1:27 was not formed from the rib of the man in Genesis 2:7 because Genesis 2:7 took place in the DAY the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. That means they existed in the DAY that took place in Genesis 1:1. So the silence in Genesis 1:27 is a moot point.
jaywill writes:
She was bara created at the same time the man was bara created. How do you know that ? Moses writes: 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. They were both bara created. No material was listed as used in their creation. In bara creation God speaks and the resulting creation exists.
jaywill writes: Verse 21 says that God created on the fifth day "great sea creatures" and "every winged bird" in addition to other life which swarmed the waters. You cannot insist what moments did or did not pass between these acts. Can you insist that winged birds and sea creatures had to be created at the exact same moment ? I don't think you can.
No. But I can insist that they were not all created.
Moses writes: Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. The only thing created in this verse is great whales. Everything else is called forth after their kind. That means that they had already existed and God was just calling them forth from the water after their kind. Others were called forth out of the Ground after their kind. Just as vegetation was called forth from the seed that was on the ground.
jaywill writes: Are you saying that women were created ex nihilo but the mother of all living was not ? "Created", "formed" , and "made" all can and have been used in the bringing of humanity into existence. I am saying the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 is your pre-adamic race of people that peopled the earth millions of years ago. (millions of years is not correct but the best I can describe it now). The man is Genesis 2:7 was formed from the dust of the ground.The Hebrew word yatsar was translated formed. The woman in Genesis 2:22 was made from the rib of the man that was formed from the dust of the ground.The Hebrew word banah was translated made. Mankind in Genesis 1:27 was created male and female.The Hebrew word bara' was translated created. They all came into existence by a different method. If the Word of God is true they are different people. Since God can not lie I have to adjust what I have been told all my life to conform to God's Word as it is true.
jaywill writes: I mentioned that chapter two is a window into the eternal purpose of God. I mean in the sense that it typifies the one new man being created in Christ Jesus on the cross. Out from Him God builds His Body and His Bride. And you have 0 support for that assertion.
jaywill writes: "Male and female He created [bara] them" (Genesis 5:2) refers not only to Genesis 1:26 but Genesis 2:22,23 as well. You keep making that assertion. Where is your argumentation to support your assertion. Better yet wherre is the text that supports your assertion. The female in Genesis 2:22 was made from the rib of the man that was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7.
jaywill writes: The Hebrew word bara may be the only word suitable to discribe creation ex nihilo. But it is not reserved only for that definition. It does have some overlaping usage with words that would not mean bringing into existence with no previous material. The Hebrew word bara' is the only word used concerning something being spoken into existence. It has also been translated by the translators as words other than created. But the translators did not write the Hebrew texts.
jaywill writes: Two different accounts of man coming into existence using different words, I think, should be viewed as emphazing different spiritual themes perhaps. There is no need to jump the conclusion that two different events or two humanities are involved. Thinking sometimes can be dangerous. Someone here at EvC told me that. Then they told me to stop thinking. I haven't so don't. Just try to channel it in the right places. A man that is formed from the dust of the ground and the breath of life breathed into him producing a living being. Is a lot different than a man being spoke into existence male and female.
jaywill writes: Before the building of the woman it could be said that God created him male only. After the building of the woman it could be said God created them male and female. I think it is simple. No. You could say God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils and he became a living being. Only man existed. No. You could say God formed man and made woman. I think that is simple. There is nothing said about God creating either of these human beings.
jaywill writes: This does not add up. You are saying that God brought Adam and his wife into existence and at latter time created male and female humanity. It doesn't add up if you believe there is one story that took place 6,000+ years ago. If you believe as you say you do that there was a race of people prior the modern man then it makes perfect sense. No race of people could exist that God did not place on Earth. So yes God formed a man and made a woman out of his rib. These people inhabited the Earth for one DAY of undetermined existence of that light period called day. Then God created mankind in His image/likeness which we have descended from some 6,000+ years ago.
jaywill writes: You are saying that God brought the mother of all living into existence and then some time latter some of her descendents were created out of nothing. If she was the mother of ALL living then the male and female created ex nihilo would be living but not from Eve. And that would make it untrue that Eve was the mother of ALL living.
God never says Eve is the mother of all living. The Hebrew text does not even say 'of all'. It just says mother living. the 'of all' is supplied by the translators.
jaywill writes: That would argue that Eve is the mother of all living except the living people created in Genesis 1:26,27 who came ex nihilo. I think your theory ends up with two humanities. You have now all the descendents of Eve and a second line of all the descendents of the first female created in Genesis 1:26,27. You could say Eve was the mother of all living people except the man in Genesis 2:4-4:24. There is no Eve in Genesis 1:2-2:3 so no we do not have a single line of all living today. It is possible but not necessary as there could have been a thousand couples created in Genesis 1:27 there is no number given or inferred.
jaywill writes: Do you believe that Eve the mother of all living had descendents before the sixth day ? I believe that Eve as called by the Man formed from the dust of the ground had children who had children who had children who had children who had children who had children who had childrenwho had children who all died prior to Genesis 1:2. Which was 5 days before the sixth day began. jaywill writes: I don't know if that is yes or no.I only regard you as saying only one seer was involved taking a dictation. God can do anything He wants to do. There was only one man responsible for the writing of the Torah. I assume there was things added by Joshua and probably many things changed and added by transcribes and translators over the years. All you have to do to know that is still happening is go to the Bible book store and see how many new Bibles are on the shelf. In fact the mentor you follow has added his own beliefs to what He teaches. That is something I am trying to avoid as I try to find exactly what the text we have says.
jaywill writes: You made an issue, I think, of Cain and Abel not being mentioned in Genesis 5. I thought that you interpreted that as evidence that the Adam of chapter two is not the man created in the image of God in chapter 1 somehow. The issue is Cain was the firstborn son of the man formed from the dust of the ground thus his lineage would have been used in the generations of that man. Seth was the firstborn son of the man created in the image/likeness of God and that is why the generations are given through his lineage.
jaywill writes: However, it is also true that some people were omitted. For example in the section of the kings from David to the deportation to Bacylon, Jehoiakim was omitted in Matthew 1:11. Compare verse 11 to 1 Chron. 3:15-16. The reason could be because Jehoiakim was made king by Pharoah of Egypt and collected taxes for Egypt So Matthew leaving him out in his account removed him from the family tree. I don't think so.
jaywill writes: I don't know how you know that. I do not rely on Ussher's chronological calculations So when did Genesis 1:2-2:3 take place?
jaywill writes: Only 130 years of the father of Cain elapsed within which the same man begot Seth. So Seth is a modern man but Cain is not ? The man who was formed from the dust of the ground who was Cain's father has no age ascribed to him at all. In fact Cain or none of his descendants have any age ascribed to them. The only man that has an age is the man created in Genesis 1:27 and his descendants, they have ages ascribed to them.
jaywill writes: I don't follow you. It seems to be boiling down to the interpretation of YOM [English day] in Genesis, I think. It has nothing to do with the interpretation of YOM. It has everything to do with what the text says. Genesis 1:1 says:
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 2:4 says:
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Genesis 2:5-4:24 gives us those generations of the things that happened in the DAY the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. Does Genesis 1:1 tell us God created the Heaven and Earth? Does Genesis 2:4 tell us these are the generations of the heavens and the earth in the DAY they were created? In this entire thread I have been affirming that there is a story given in Genesis 2:4-4:24 of the creation of the Heaven and Earth and the placing of mankind and other creatures on the Earth. I have also been affirming that there is a story in Genesis 1:2 where we find the Earth that was created in Genesis 1:1 covered with water. Which God did some remolding too and made it inhabitable for mankind and other creatures. The generations of this man created in Genesis 1:27 is given beginning in Genesis 5:1. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi DB,
Why the changed of hats? 
DB writes: Here is what I mean. Yes I understand that bara means something from nothing, but now compare that usage of the word with what is written in Hebrews 11:3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
At the risk of getting into deep water with jaywill I will comment on the above statement. Actually there is no such thing as an absence of anything. (nothing) So the writer of Hebrews was correct when he said "what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." Now at the risk of being called a Pantheist I will state: God is existence. God claimed to be everything that is when He said "I AM". That being said God had all the energy He needed to create everything we see and don't see. He also had enough energy to keep everything together. So everything that we see was created from energy provided by God. I really do not want to get into a discussion of this philosophy as it will lead way of from what I am trying to accomplish in this thread. But I thought I would bring it up for clarification as to what creation is. You and others know I am on record as saying I believe everything we see and do not see has always existed in some form. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: I also do not believe that before God created man and commanded them to multiply in Genesis 1:28 they had already been made, formed, created, shaped, what have you, and multiplied. Then you don't believe the Bible when it says: God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being. God made woman from the rib of the man. God drove out the man. Conceived and bare Cain. You are entitled to believe whatever you choose.
jaywill writes: I don't believe that because Eve is not mentioned by name in chapter one that that chapter could not be talking about the first woman created.don't believe that because Eve is not mentioned by name in chapter one that that chapter could not be talking about the first woman created. Then explain how the woman in chapter 1 who was created can be the woman that was made from the rib of the man formed from the dust of the ground.
jaywill writes: 1.) Before the creation of woman and the multiplication of them another woman was created previously who is called the mother of all living. 2.) After the creation of woman and the multiplication of them a woman was created and assigned to be the mother of all living. Number 1 is close.The only problem is that the woman called Eve was made not created from the rib of the man formed from the dust of the ground. Can you understand the difference in God taking the dust of the ground and making a form then breathing into that form the breath of life into that form and it becoming a living being,And Speaking and mankind appearing in the image/likeness of God male and female? jaywill writes: I know that you would not insist that yom has only one possible meaning. Why wouldn't I insist on yom meaning what God said it meant.God call a light period day. God called darkness night. God called the combination of a period of light and a period of darkness the first day. You can call it anything you want I will accept God's definition. jaywill writes: Still you cannot know that a male and a female whale were created at the same moment. You can only speculate. You can only express your preference of belief. Are you saying God who spoke and the universe and Earth existed can not speak and mankind exist male and female even in the millions if He desired, or that He could not speak and thousands of whales male and female exist?
jaywill writes: How do you know that ? The Bible tells me so. One was formed from the dust of the groundOne was made from a rib. One was spoke into existence. Yep 3 different ways. jaywill writes: These are not just nice words of Paul to be read at wedding ceremonies. He says that he speaks concerning Christ and the church. His burden is deeper than just giving good marriage advice. But what do they have to do with the creation story?
jaywill writes: Zero support ?? Zero support that the typology of Genesis chapter two touches on God's eternal purpose ? I see no typology in the history of the day the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth.In some of my wildest moments I still see nothing but Moses telling us what happened in the DAY the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. BTW that is what the Bible says.
jaywill writes: I do not. I depend upon scholars who do. And they do not always agree among themselves. Yes there are a lot of disagreements.And yes I read and write Old Hebrew and Chaldee and have been studying it since I started college in 1965 spending 6 years in Hebrew classes. I did that so I would not have to take what someone told me it said. jaywill writes: Yes it is different. But man is a three part being - spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23). So I would not be suprised that some of each would be envolved in man's creation. The man and woman created in the image/likeness of God is nowhere said to have a soul. If we are made in the image of God we have a Mind God is all knowing. We have a body as Jesus had a body, and We have a spirit as the Holy Spirit is spirit. That makes us a triune being.
jaywill writes: What I think I hear you saying is that the man and woman formed in chapter two were pre-human. I think you are going to paint yourself into a corner on the ledge of a cliff. yourself into a corner on the ledge of I have in no place said they were pre-human. I said they were your pre-adamic race.They were human just not modern humans. They were not created in the image/likeness of God. They were formed and made then produce offspring. We got all kinds of fossils that prove they existed. jaywill writes: In fact much more burden of Moses seems apparent in writing chapter two through five about this so-called proto, pre-human false start. If he is not the real thing why didn't Moses extend his talk from Genesis 1:26,27 discribing the history of your "Real McCoy" man and woman ? In this thread I am affirming that there is a creation story in Genesis 1:1-Genesis 2:3. The history of the man created in the image likeness of God begins in Genesis 5:1...... I am affirming there is a creation story in Genesis 2:4-4:24 which is the history of what happened in the DAY the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth which was recorded in Genesis 1:1.God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi DB,
DB writes: I dont 'see' the sharp distinction you are making about two creations of humans, did you read that somewhere or think of it on your own? I was born again August 18, 1949. On December 7, 1949 I presented a devotional on prayer meeting night. We only had a preacher on Sunday so different ones presented a lesson or devotion on prayer meeting night. I had agreed to present a devotion on this night. I had been saved only a little over 3 months and was 11 years old as my birthday was in September. I presented the same things that night that I have presented in this thread. The only sermons I had ever heard about creation was that In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. God said it and that settles it. My pastors were farmers in their 60's and older so most of them had no formal education and one had a 3rd grade education. So their message was plain vanilla. Obey God and trust Him or spend eternity in Hell. Needless to say the next time I spoke in that church I was 65 years old. I have no reason for having the message that I have as I don't need it. I believe Genesis 1:1 so I have no problem with the rest of the Bible. But I have this driving desire to search out these thoughts and share them with others. It seems so simple and plain to me and yet no one agrees with me. But I can take a room full of 12 year olds and have them start reading at Genesis 1:1 and tell them to stop when they reach a verse that refers to Genesis 1:1 and the majority will stop at 2:4 and say this one. I have even done it with adults and they stop at 2:4. But when I go on to explain that the verses from there on is telling us what happened in the DAY the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth they balk and say no the creation story in in chapter 1 and this one is the same one. What we have believed all our lives is hard to shake off. I am coming down to the end of my journey and am in the process of putting these things down on paper in a book. The problem is I have over 2000 pages and have a lot of trimming to do to get it where people will sit down and read it.
DB writes: Could you be making a distinction that does not exist? Sure I could. I could also be a brain in a jar in some creatures lab and all these things just information that is fed into that brain giving me the illusion that I am sitting here typing this message to you. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: No. It means that I do not agree with your interpretation of what the Bible says in this instance. I said: "God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being."
Moses writes: Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 1. Does this say God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being? YES/NO I said: God made woman from the rib of the man.
Moses writes: Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 2. Does this verse say God took the rib he had taken from the man and made a woman? YES/NO I said: "God drove out the man."
Moses writes: Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. 3. Does this verse say God drove out the man? YES/NO I said: "Conceived and bare Cain."
Moses writes: Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
4. Does this verse say conceived and bare Cain? YES/NO 5. Now where is my interpretation that you disagree with?
jaywill writes: For many centries some brothers in Christ have told each other "Well then, you do not believe the Bible." This is usually rhetorical talk and a bit condescending. But it is ok. I understand we each feel strongly about different interpretations. Either you believe what is recorded in the Bible or you don't. It makes no difference what I or anybody says about your belief. I believe you have the right to believe anything you desire to believe.
jaywill writes: May the Lord bless your labors on that book. I hope it exalts Christ. Thanks. But if it does not exalt Christ it will be a waste of time. He must be the center of everything.
jaywill writes: I have already explained this. This assertion is not an explanation.
jaywill writes: I don't believe that because Eve is not mentioned by name in chapter one that that chapter could not be talking about the first woman created. Matthew writes: Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, jaywill writes: I suspect that you will point out that the word "them" is supplied by the translators. I suspect you will read it as " ... He who created from the beginning made them male and female. Why would I tell you that when you already know it was supplied by the translators. Why would I use created, Greek word ktiz when poie was used? Jesus was talking about the people who were formed, made which happened to be those in Genesis 2:7 man formed from the dust of the ground and woman made from the rib of the man. He even quoted the man formed from the dust of the ground who said:in Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." jaywill writes: But I think Jesus is referring to both Genesis 1:26,27 and Genesis 2:7,18-25 . And Genesis 5:1 says "Male and female He created them." But Jesus did not use the word for created. He used the word for formed or made. The man and woman in Genesis 2:7 and 2:22 was made. Mankind was created male and female in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: But I think Jesus is referring to both Genesis 1:26,27 and Genesis 2:7,18-25 . And Genesis 5:1 says "Male and female He created them." You can think what ever you desire the text says Jesus was referring to the man and woman made in chapter 2 and He quoted the man formed from the dust of the ground.
jaywill writes: I respect your intense love for the word of God. Thanks. The Bible is the Word of God. I am supposed to be able to understand it. If I don't understand something I am to ask the Spirit to lead me and guide me to the truth. The Word is very specific in many places and I have to get that right. Because I have an appointment with Jesus where I will stand before Him and give an account of every word I have ever spoken concerning His Word and every word I have typed on this web site and others.
jaywill writes: You are saying that before the creation of woman and God's command that humans multiply, there was another woman made not quite in the image of God who was the mother of all living. Of all does not appear in the Hebrew text.
jaywill writes: Now we come to the second account in Genesis two. We have essentially the same matter as far as God and man is concerned. All the animals are brought forth to man. None are suitable to be his counterpart. None match his unique being. That is until the woman is brought forth from him in his sleep. She is bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. She is woman the reflection of man. The problem is this chapter beginning with verse 4 is the history of the DAY the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth. That means everything in these verses was completed prior to Genesis 1:2. Show me where the man was placed before the tree of life. He did not know where that tree was. If he had he would have rushed over to it and ate just as soon as he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil knowing that he would die.
jaywill writes: You do great damage to the Bible's revelation by teaching that the man in chapter two is not in the image of God. Then show me where the text says the man formed from the dust of the ground was formed in the image/likeness of God.
jaywill writes: Man is created in a "God shaped" way spiritually and emotionally. Man was created as a living vessel to contain the uncreated divine Person of God as eternal life. Modern man was created in the image/likeness of God some 6,000+ years ago. The record of that creation is found in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: And in chapter two you have man as a created vessel (male and female) brought before the divine life of God signified in the tree of life. The uncreated Person is to fit inside the created person made in His image for a mutual incorporation of God and man. You do not have man created. You have man formed from the dust of the ground. Then God breathed the breath of life into that form and that form became a living being. They did not know where the tree of life was.
jaywill writes: These are two angles only. The same creation of humanity is represented in the two angles. You draw that conclusion from what? You have a man formed from the dust of the ground. You have a man that is created by God speaking, and it was so.
jaywill writes: It is important to His eternal purpose that we see that Adam as the type of Christ was the SOURCE from which his wife came into existence !! The only things they had in common was their love and they both had a physical body. The first man sold us into slavery. Jesus came to buy us back out of slavery. The first man brought death. Jesus brought life. Me thinks you get too carried away in types.
jaywill writes: The Son of God is the SOURCE out from which the eternal city, the kingdom of God and the Body of Christ as His Wife, the New Jerusalem comes into existence. God the Son is the source of everything.
John writes: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. jaywill writes: I wish you would read "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee. In fact I need to re-read it myself. You would probably do better to study the Bible asking the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you in all truth. The Spirit can't lie, unlike me and everybody else.
jaywill writes: Which creation of man does this refer to? Is that your first class created man or your second class previously made from dust man ? The man that was created in the image/likeness of God. God the Father = MindGod the Son = physical body. God the Holy Spirit = spirit. Yep that is the mankind created in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: They have to do with what I said. Chapter two is a window into the eternal purpose of God to bring forth from Christ His counterpart. Then explain this verse.
Moses writes: 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, What are these the generations of? What day is Moses talking about?
jaywill writes: This city bears the glory of God and is the temple of God. This city in the end of the Bible is the Wife of the incarnate Redeeming God. She is produced out of the death and resurrection of the second man Christ. I agree the New Jerusalem will be inhabited by God Himself. That will be the Triune God. They will then be one and we will understand it. This city is not the Bride of Christ. I don't find where it is produced out of Christ's death and resurrection.
jaywill writes: This city is the destination of all the believers as sons of God. Then why does it have 12 gates that are never shut?
jaywill writes: This city as Christ's Wife is the reason why God created a universe. Where do you get that garbage from?
John writes: Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. John the Baptist said he was a friend of the bridegroom. He is not a part of the Bride of Christ. He said Jesus already had the Bride. Who did Jesus have? Jesus had His Church which is His Bride. Now as usual you have taken the debate completely away from the OP. Could we discuss what is written in the KJV Bible, LXX and Hebrew test concerning what is written in Genesis chapter 1 and 2?
jaywill writes: Ie. Before MAN was CREATED a MAN was FORMED from Dust who was not in the image of God. He and his wife had descendents and they multiplied in the earth. Sometime latter MAN was Created and Female was created, BUT ... they had no SOULS !! Before man was created in the image/likeness of God. A man was formed from the dust of the ground. God breathed the breath of life into that form and that form became a living soul = being. Soul is living being not a spiritual man. You said earlier that you did not have a problem mixing soul and spirit as the same thing. Have you changed your mind?
jaywill writes: Brother, FELLOWSHIP is good. Have you presented this for fellowship with others experienced in the Christian life as yourself ? My brother tells me that one of the pastors he had after I left north Florida after reviewing my work had come to the same conclusion that I have. As far as I know he and my brother and about 30 others believe the way I do. Which really does not bother me. There is no way as a 11 year old boy I could come up with this view of these texts without the Holy Spirit revealing it to me. Well the devil could have but what would be his reason for doing so?
jaywill writes: Well, the greater number of bibilcal references at key points in the Bible is with them in view. Now if they are not as important as modern man why is so much more said in Scripture about them ?? Because by the disobedience of the man who was formed from the dust of the ground: Death entered into the universe. He died the day he ate the forbidden fruit. All mankind was separated from God. God drove the man from His presence.
jaywill writes: You arrive at a MAN not created in the image of God whom the bible refers to quite a lot and even calls him the first man. And you arrive at another MAN created in the image of God some time latter who has NO SOUL. I have a man formed from the dust of the ground who God breathed the breath of life into that became a living being. This man was formed in the beginning during the day the Heaven and the Earth was created. I then have a man that was created in the image/likeness of God. A man that has a mind, body and spirit. He is a living being. When you say he has no soul what are you referring too? God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: YESWhen the breath of spirit of God united with the body formed from the dust the result was that man became a living soul. The three parts of man are indicated there - spirit and soul and body. Thanks for the answer. The commentary was not necessary as it is not supported by the verse under discussion. But since you gave it, Where is the Spirit mentioned?
jaywill writes: There is NO man in the entire Bible who is not made in the image of God. There is no man in existence who is not made in the image of God. Where in the formation of the man in Genesis 2:7 does it say this man was made in the image of God?
jaywill writes: Some racist theologians supporting slavery in the US taught that the African black man had no soul. If I am going to keep responding to your topic you have opened in my thread I need some definitions. What is the meaning of: SoulSpirit Mind Church Family Bride City Foundation Gates That will do for starters.
jaywill writes: The Recovery Version says that He "built" the rib into a woman. I have no problem with build as opposed to make. I ran a cabinet shop for many years I made or built cabinets. I do have a problem with your commentary as it is not mentioned in Chapter 2 of Genesis. Therefore it comes from some man's imagination.
jaywill writes: "In whom you also are being builded together into a dwelling place of God in spirit" (Eph.2:22) "You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter. 2:5) "You are God's farm; God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9) " ... I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18) What does any of that have to do with what is said in Genesis 2:22?
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. jaywill writes: Eve being bult from the life element of Adam, his rib, is a window into the building up of the dwelling place of God, the church and New Jerusalem, from the death and resurrestion of the Son of God. The woman was built from the rib from man. But the text does not support your commentary. That came from the imagination of some man.
jaywill writes: YES.And this man and woman are not other than the man and woman created in Genesis 1:26,27. Two angles are presented with two different emphasises. Thanks for your answer. The commentary was not necessary and is not supported by the verse quoted.
jaywill writes: YES. And this is the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:26,27. It is not some other man previously made, who was not created, or some such theory. Thanks for you answer. The commentary was not necessary and is not supported by the verse quoted.
jaywill writes: Genesis 4:1 says that Eve conceived and bore Cain. YES Thanks for the answer.
jaywill writes: I disagree with the interpretation that any of this indicates another human race as is describd in Genesis 1:26,27. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree with the interpretation that Genesis 2 cannot mean that God created them male and female as is plainly indicated in Genesis 5:1. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree that the passages in Genesis chapter 2 refer to a pre-Adamic event or represents a pre-Adamic human being. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree that God had two economies going on the earth with two different human races, one made in Genesis 2 and a subsequent one created in Genesis 1. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I strongly disagree with the interpretation that there is "zero" evidence for the indication of Christ and the church symbolized in chapter 2. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree that "This is the book of the generations of Adam. When [or in the day] God created Adam, He made him in the likeness of God" (Gen. 5:1) in any manner whatsoever refers TWO bringings into existence of man on the earth. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree with the interpretation that Gen. 5:1 forces the reader to understand that another day of light is refered to beside the 6th day when we are told that God created human beings. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: Exactly. And if we are told in the Bible that the first man Adam is a type of Christ and you teach that the Adam of Genesis 2 is not the man created in the image and likeness of God in chapter 1, you terribly confuse and obscure the matter and weaken the truth. What do you consider a type of something? I need your definition of type.
jaywill writes: For since through man came death, through man also came the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor. 15:21) One brings death. The other brings life. The only type there is anti-type.
jaywill writes: Obscuring this with an opinion about Genesis 1:26,27 refering to a different creation of man than Genesis 2:7 throws Romans into a tailspin. To fit Romans into the babyrinth of your theology weakens Paul's apostolic teaching which exalts Christ. "For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" (Rom. 15:22) The man formed from the dust of the ground ate the fruit and brought the penalty of death into the universe. This brought death to all mankind. All mankind can be reunited to God through the sacrifice at Calvary thus being made alive. So what is the problem?
jaywill writes: Obscuring this by teaching that this was the Adam made before MAN was created fogs this truth up so much, one does not know where he is. I think it weakens Paul's Christ exalting teaching of Romans and throws the follower of your theology into a labyrinth of obscurity for the sake of figuring out when animals were made. "The first man is out of the earth, earthly, the second man is out of heaven." (Rom. 15:47) You need to correct that quote as it is from 1 Corinthians 15:47.
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. The first man was made/formed a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The second man the Lord from heaven. So the first man is the one formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:;7.
jaywill writes: Adding to this that there are TWO human races created in the Bible one made and a latter one created without a soul, throws this clear revelation into a maze of questionings and geneologies weakening the truth. Not really. You have the generations of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis chapter 4. You have the generations of the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis chapter 5. What is the problem?
jaywill writes: All the constrast between Adam and Christ in Romans become obscure as soon as you introduce another first man, created "elsewhere" in Gen. 1:26,27, who had no soul. Why? All instances of the first man in Romans is referring to the man who was formed from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7.
jaywill writes: I think these interpretation distract from Christ rather than exalt Christ. They tend to distract me into questionings about animals, uncreated women, souless humans created in the image of God, TWO human races in the word of God. There is no interpretation involved. All that I have presented in recorded in the first two chapters of Genesis.
jaywill writes: There is such a thing as deeper teaching which should not be pre-maturely administered to those accustomed to the milk of the word. But I do not think you present here something more "meaty" and solid. I think you have something wrong. You are allowed to think whatever you desire to think. Just don't think you can change what God said or did by thinking differently that what He said or did.
jaywill writes: "And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things." (Col. 1:18) Lets break this down a little. He is the Head of the Body.What is the Body? He is the Head of the Church.What constitutes a Church? He is the beginning.John tells us Jesus was the beginning of everything John 1:1... He is the Firstborn from the dead.He was the first Spiritual Being that was resurrected in a new body. And when He came forth from the grave many followed Him. That He may have first place in all things.That is the reason for the universe and its inhabitants. jaywill writes: "So then if anyone is in Christ, [he] is a new creation,. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new." (2 Cor. 4:17) When a person is born of the Spirit into God's family the Holy Spirits takes up His abode in the spirit of man. That spirit can never commit sin, It has been made anew.
jaywill writes: All this is to prove that though the coming about of the church is a building, a forming, a making, it is also a new creation. The above verse has nothing to do with the Church.
jaywill writes: I don't think for the sake of Matthew 19:4 you should deduce TWO human races with TWO different beginings in the Scripture. Matthew 19:4 does not teach two different beginnings.It just refers to the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. It does not refer to the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: Colossian 1:16 says that because of Christ all things were created: "Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens, and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created thrugh Him and unto Him." (Col. 1:16) The Greek text says:
1 Colossian 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: John writes: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Christ made everything.
jaywill writes: Are you going to say woman is not on the earth and was not created through Christ ? Are you going to teach the Apostle Paul that Eve on the earth out of Adam's rib was not CREATED through Christ ? Christ made the woman out of the rib of the first man who was formed from the dust of the ground.
jaywill writes: " ... the mystery ..., which throughout the ages was hidden in God Who created all things ..." (Eph. 3:9) Are you going to instruct Paul that Eve was not created by God ?Are you going to inform Paul that the man in Genesis 2 was not created by the God who created all things ? No but I will instruct you that Paul knew what the Greek word he used in Eph. 3:9 means. So here the definition is for you. 1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island a) to found a city, colony, state He knew it meant to make. Thanks for your answer to my questions. I am glad to see you agree that the Bible says what it says. On to your next sermon. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: Do you think that the man created in Genesis 1:26,27 did not have a rib because a rib was not mentioned ? Do you think that because sleep was not mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27 therefore that man did not sleep ? We have ribs so I assume he had ribs. We sleep so I assume he slept. I do not assume God took a rib from this man and formed a female. The text does not support such an assumption. This man also had a light period followed by a dark period. The man in Genesis 2:7 had a light period only. There was no way of telling time as there was only existence. That is the reason there are no ages for the generations in chapter 4 I assume.
jaywill writes: You are building an unwarrented theology on these verses because of silence. You say man in Gen. 1:26 has no soul because "man became a living soul" is not mentioned. Or you say man in gen 1:26 is souless because the soul is not mentioned. If your definition of soul is living being I will agree that the man in Genesis 1:27 was a living being.
jaywill writes: "We are His masterpiece [the church] CREATED in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10). Like the woman out of Adam, Christ's Body is both formed and created. I will defer on this until I get your definitions.
jaywill writes: Yes, me also. And James said that all the teachers make mistakes. I think you have made one. I wish I had only made one.
jaywill writes: Neither does "of SOME" appear. Is there a person named in the Bible who does not have Eve as an eventual mother ? Who ? The man who was formed from the dust of the ground is the first that comes to mind. All the descendants of the mankind created in the image/likeness of God male and female. These people can not trace their lineage to Eve as she did not exist at Genesis 1:2. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: I believe in a creation/destruction/restoration (and further creation) model of the universe. Welcome to the club. I believe in a creation found in Genesis 1:1 with its history given beginning at Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:24. I believe in some kind of destruction that occurred for which there is no record given in the texts. I believe there was a restoration begun in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3.
jaywill writes: The way I understand your explanation is that God made man when He created heaven and earth in the beginning. Then there was the destruction due to the Satanic rebellion. Then there was the six day restoration and further creation in which God CREATED man in His image. I believe God created the Heaven and the Earth in the beginning which was a light period of undetermined existence. All the things in Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:24 took place in that light period. The man who was formed from the dust of the ground that ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and was told he would die the day he ate that fruit did die in that light period along will all his descendants. You call these people pre-Adamic race. I classify them as mankind because that is what God classified them as. I have no idea what caused the destruction that prevailed in Genesis 1:2. I know there are those who say it was Satan when he was kicked out of heaven in his fall. Problem is he is still in heaven.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Since Satan was in Heaven in Job's days He could not have been cast out prior to Genesis 1:2 to cause the destruction or condition the Earth was in, in Genesis 1:2. Satan is said in Revelation to have accused the brethren before God day and night. This could not have ceased even until this day. Therefore this is yet to come to pass.
jaywill writes: However, I don't think this is right. The pre-Adamic world had no human beings. Man was created in the six days of restoration and further creation of Genesis 1. And a second account of man's forming and the building of the wife is in chapter 2. You have made this assertion several times already. That is simple to determine and you don't even have to think. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 2:4 says, "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," Genesis 2:7 says, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The following verses tells us what else God formed in that day. We then find the earth after whatever it was that caused it to be as it is in Genesis 1:2 uninhabitable by mankind. God did some work on it to make it habitable, in Genesis 1:3-10. God then called forth vegetation from the seed on the ground. Genesis 1:11, 12. God then made the light in the heavens visible from earth. Genesis 1:14-18. God then called forth fish and fowl from the water after their kind. Genesis 1:20 He then created great whales and finally ended His creation work by creating mankind male and female. Then God ceased His creating works. Genesis 1:21 He then called forth creatures after their kind. Genesis 1:24, 25. He then made mankind male and female. Genesis 1:25, 26. God then ceased His creating. Genesis 2:1, 2.
jaywill writes: Neither of these chapters, I am pretty sure, refer to a pre-Adam humanity. I agree. The mankind formed from the dust of the earth was called mankind. Adam if you prefer. The mankind created male and female in Genesis 1:27 was called mankind. Adam if you prefer.
jaywill writes: I believe the creation of the heavens and the earth refers to the creation in the beginning. When He made earth and heaven refers to the six days of His restoration and further creation work. You need to correct this quote because these are not my words they are yours.
jaywill writes: "When [or in the day] when Jehovah God made earth and heaven, and no plant of the field was yet in the earth ..." (RESTORATION of the Six Days and further creation of man) Whose commentary are you quoting here? The scriptures I agree with. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: Well, I think quoting me the verse and asking me if it says that is kind of sparse. So I thought to add something. We are told the consequences of adding something to God's Word.
jaywill writes: The breath of life breathed out by God into the nostrils of man is very metaphysical. But I do not believe it was refering to God's Person of the Spirit. It did supply man with something very close to God's Spirit. The text is simple and plain it says, "breath of life". That is all that it is.
jaywill writes: Now you know that I have given you my answer on this already. I know that you reject that answer from Genesis 5:1. Which does not use image but does refer to likeness of God. And I think one of the pair of the two words probably indicates the other also. But Genesis 5:1 does not refer to the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. It does specifically refer to the male and female created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Now compare with:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This male and female was created in the image of God. Then if you compare 5:1, 2 to:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. There is nothing to compare.
jaywill writes: Soul - means the mind plus the emotions plus the will. These three components make up the human soul. I have no idea where you come up with that definition from. The text says God put the breath of life into the form. It says nothing about mind, emotions or will.
jaywill writes: Spirit - By your capitalization of Spirit I assume you mean God Himself. I always capitalize all words that begin a statement or sentence. So I need your definition for Spirit, spirit.
jaywill writes: Mind - The part of the soul that thinks Are you telling me the mind can die? The soul that sinneth shall die. Every living being sins and therefore dies.
jaywill writes: Church - The living entity produced by the resurrected Christ dispensing His life into His redeemed people, conforming them and transfirming them, building them up to be His mystical Body. This is a very big subject that I have given a very brief definition to. Which tell me you have no idea what the Church is. Church, ekklesia means: 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating That means any called out assembly is a church. Lions club, Masons, Chamber of Commerce etc. So what would a New Testament Church be? It would be a called out assembly for a specific purpose. When did Jesus call out specific people for a specific purpose?
Matthew 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. Jesus called out two men to be fishers of men. That is the formation of the first Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
jaywill writes: Family - As I used it I think I mean those who share the divine nature of God with God. A family is related by birth. To be in the Family of God you must be born into His Family. The Church and Family are two different entities.
jaywill writes: Bride - That church perfected and prepared for Christ's satisfaction. In other words the church or an overcoming remnant of the whole church which has been perfected to be Christ's counterpart. This is a big subject with a sparse definition here. If you object to any of these larger subjects which I have only spoken to in briefest terms, I will understand but be disappointed. If you will change the the first sentence too: Bride - That church which is perfected and prepared to Christ's satisfaction. I would agree with that short definition.
jaywill writes: City - Because bride is a collective it is also called a city. That is the church is a collective. That is many many people. So it is also called a city. The Bride is the Church. The Church is not a city you can find the church in a city. You can also find it in the country. In fact any place that is designated to meet. When two or three are gathered together a church exists. A city is a physical structure.
jaywill writes: Somewhere in the Gospel of Mark it says that the whole city went out to see Jesus. It means the PEOPLE went out to see Him. Matthew writes: Matt 8:34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought [him] that he would depart out of their coasts. The Greek word translated the whole means each individual so yes it would mean the people of the city.
jaywill writes: Foundation - As I used it for Revelation 21 and 22 I mean the underlying supporting reality of the city New Jerusalem. This is symbolic in Revelation. We are told that Christ is the foundation of the church. We are also told that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Gates - As I used it a refered to the symbol, the sign signfying man's entrance into the New Jerusalem. The gates speak of the entering into God's eternal purpose through Christ and Christ's work in God's economy. My problem is that I take everything to be literal. As far as I am concerned there is nothing symbolic. I would like to comment on: "We are also told that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" I can not find that text anywhere. I can find:
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I assume this is what you base your statement on. But the church is not built on Peter. It was built upon Peters answer to the question Jesus asked.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church Peters answer was "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God." That is what the church is built on. Paul said it this way.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Christ is the foundation.
jaywill writes: Often the person suspicious in this way is so because he himself has such a fertile imagination. As face answers to face in water, so the mind of a man reflects the man. You can rest assured that I have a huge fertile imagination. But when I am examining text I am not allowed to use my imagination. If God says it I have to believe it. I have no choice.
jaywill writes: Let us just say, he who can receive it, receives it. These types you talk about is simply peoples thoughts on certain subjects. Now why will you accept types, symbols and thoughts of other men and then refuse to accept what is written in black and white?
jaywill writes: It has to do with the building of Adam's wife as a type of the building up of the church for Christ. That is no explanation. That is just asserting what you believe.
jaywill writes: "Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her ... That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and without blemish" It has to do with Ephesians 5:22-33. It has to do with the second man Christ, being presented with a corperate body of sons of God made to match Him. He died not only for you and I as individual sinners. Much more He died for the church - "Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her" . Chapter 2 is a window into the eternal purpose of God to obtain a Wife for the God-man Jesus Christ. She is also His Body. The parallels are rich and hard to not notice. Haven't you sung the classic hymn The Church's One Foundation? Nothing goes to heaven except what came out of heaven. The church is out of Christ and contains Christ. She will be saturated with Christ and permeated with Christ. She will eventually MATCH Christ. And He also can say "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of My flesh" Eve brought to Adam to marry Adam to be Adam's counterpart
Talk about a fertile imagination. Or are you just repeating something someone else said?
jaywill writes: Man was made not created in Genesis 2. He multiplied and his wife was the mother of [all] living. Both are refered to many times in the Bible. But they were not the real modern humanity. The real modern humanity was created not formed in Genesis 1 in the image of God. But for some strange reason they did not have souls because souls were not mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27. It is strange to me that you do not regard this as someone standing up and saying "Look at me everybody. I can say something original!" You do not see a lot of imagination in that ? If there is it was Moses imagination. He is the one who recorded:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. These scriptures do not come out of my imagination.
jaywill writes: I bet I can find more commentators who would agree that chapter two is a window of Christ and the church in some form if not in all details as I have written. I can find a Bible that does not even contain chapter 2 in it so what. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: For a season we had some pretty good fellowship. I sense now your fed up with having your teaching closely examined in some aspects. I do not mind anything I present being questioned or discussed. But you keep dragging in types, symbolism when I want to discuss what the literal text says. If you really want to question what I have affirmed why don't you rebutt the following using the texts referred to in the OP. In Message 1 I said:
ICANT writes: In this thread I will affirm that there are 2 creations presented in Genesis chapter 1 and 2. In this thread the KJV, LXX and Hebrew text will be used. The Bible will be the final authority as that is what we will be discussing. In Message 45 I said:
ICANT writes: In Message 36 I presented the following things I know because Genesis states the following things.
ICANT writes: I know from verse 1 the heaven and the earth was (bara) created. I know from verse 2 it had become uninhabitable as it was covered with water. I know from verse 3 God caused light to be on the earth. It says nothing about Him (bara) creating the light. He just made it visible. I know from verse 4 God divided the light from the darkness. It was dark on half of the earth and light on the other half of the earth. I know from verse 5 God called the light day and the darkness night. It also tells me a light period and a dark period equals one day. The light period of Genesis 1:1 and the dark period that ended with the light period of the second day was declared the first day. I know from verse 6, 7, and 8 that God separated the waters from the uplifted waters and called that atmosphere heaven. This is where the birds and our airplanes fly. I know from verse 8 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the first day and ended with the light period of the third day was the second day. I know from verse 9 that God caused all the water to gather in one place and let dry land appear as it is shown in my avatar. I know from verse 10 that God called the dry land earth and the water sea. So far nothing has been created only rearranged. I know from verse 11 that God had the earth bring forth grass, herbs, and fruit trees, from their seed which was upon the earth. I know from verse 12 that the earth obeyed and produced grass, herbs, and fruit trees. I know from verse 13 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the second day and ended with the light period of the fourth day was the third day. I know from verse 14 and 15 that God caused visible lights in the heavens to be for signs and seasons, days and years and to give light upon the earth. I know from verse 16, 17 and 18 that God caused two great lights to be visible on earth one to rule the day and one to rule the night. He also caused the stars to be visible on earth. Still nothing has been (bara) created they were only made visible on earth. I know from verse 19 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the third day and ended with the light period of the fifth day was the fourth day. I know from verse 20 that God caused the waters to bring forth water creatures and fowl to fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Still nothing (bara) created. I know from verse 21 that God (bara) created great whales. The first thing created that was not created in Genesis 1:1. I know from verse 22 that God blessed them and told them to multiply and fill the waters and the fowl to multiply on the earth. I know from verse 23 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fourth day and ended with the light period of the sixth day was the fifth day. I know from verse 24 and 25 God called the living creature, cattle, creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind. That means they had already existed to come forth after their kind. I know from verse 26 and 27 that God (bara) created mankind in His image male and female He created them. Did He create 2 or a thousand there is no way to know as the scripture does not say. He gave mankind dominion over the creatures on earth. I know from verse 28 God blessed them and told them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it. I know from verse 29 that God told them they could eat of every herb bearing seed and every tree that yielded fruit with a seed. No fruit of any tree was forbiden to mankind. I know from verse 30 that the fowl of the air and every thing that creepeth on the earth that every green herb was given for meat. I know from verse 31 the light period that began with the end of the dark period of the fifth day and ended with the light period of the seventh day was the sixth day. On to chapter 2. I know from verse 1 everything was finished. I know from verse 2 that God ceased His preparing and furnishing the earth. God had completed His creative work. I know from verse 3 that God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it. By ceasing His work. I am affirming all of the things listed above as what Moses recorded in Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:3. If you disagree with what I have affirmed please present your rebuttal for discussion. I was very specific in what I wanted to do in this thread because I did not want to get bogged down in discussing everything in the Bible as that consumes too much time. Besides I thought it was about time an actual debate took place. The problem is everybody wants to tell me I am wrong but nobody wants to rebutt what I have actually affirmed. Would you care to give it a go? We can discuss all the other subjects you want to bring up but lets limit the scope of what we are affirming then stick to the format. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi jay,
jaywill writes: If this means not questioning that Adam in Genesis Two cannot be the man created in Genesis One, then I suppose this is not the discussion I should be in. Because that has been my point. That this is an error and the introduction of problems into Christian theology. I have no problem with you questioning whether there is one or two different men in Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2. I do have a problem when anyone ignores what the text says and try to prove their point by what someone else says. I believe the Bible is the Word of God.I know that it has been copied by mankind. I am not naive enough to believe some of them did not taint the Word. Thus the need for the Holy Spirit to lead us in all truth. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
I believe that is a fact.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, I believe that is a fact. Genesis 2:5-Genesis 4:24 are these generations spoken of in Genesis 2:4. I believe that is a fact. You don't have a problem with fact #1. You do have a problem with the other two. Yet you agree that the text says certain things. Now let me ask a couple of questions about Genesis 2:4. 1. Does the text say, "these are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created"? YES/NO 2. Does the text say, "in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"? YES/NO What problem do you have with the word day in this verse? Can God tell a lie? YES/NO
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God told the man the day he ate the fruit he would die. Did God lie? YES/NO OR Did the man die the same day he ate the fruit? YES/NO
jaywill writes: Day everywhere [yom] doesn't always mean a typical 24 hours. So I think your error is in interpreting Genesis 5:1 as not possibly meaning basically the same thing as Genesis 1:26,27. Where have I ever said Genesis 5:1 is not the generations of the mankind created in Genesis 1:27? I have many posts that claim it is a fact that Genesis 5:1 refers to the mankind created in Genesis 1:27 and no one else. What relationship does these two statements have with each other? yowm according to God is a light period or a combination of a light period and a dark period. Evidence
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. God called the light day.God called the darkness night. God called the light portion and the dark portion the first day. I do know that every yowm after that statement involved a light period and a dark period. If you know a yowm that does not involve a light period and a dark period present it. A yowm is determined by the rotation of the earth in relation to the sun, which gives us a light period and a dark period, which when combined constitute a yowm, according to God's definition of yowm. Hebrew word yowm occurs 2287 times in 1931 verses in OT.Greek word smeron occurs 41 times in 40 verses in the NT. Greek word hmera occurs 389 times in 366 verses. Means the light period Which of the 2287 times yowm appears does it mean something other than a light period or a combination of a light and dark period, or a multitude of light and dark periods which is the plural of day? You say day does not always mean day as defined by God. So take your best shot. Give me the best ten examples you have or can come up with and we will discuss them.
jaywill writes: And the structure you build on this foundation (that the formed man could not be the created man and the built woman could not be the created female) introduces some problems to understanding the Bible and God's economy. It is no problem once you accept what the Bible says. But for the moment answer the above questions and then present your best examples of yowm not being a day as described by God. And look out Peg loves this discussion. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: So I am still trying to figure out why the New Testament would again and again refer to the Adam of Genesis chapter two when the man created in the image of God without a soul in chapter one is the main thing. The one in chapter 2 is the only one that could have the choice of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: This man had the opportunity to become as God and he chose to do so. Because of that choice sin entered the universe.Because of that choice death entered the universe. Because of that choice all mankind was separated from God. So he is the one that brought all the problems on so he was more important that the man created in Genesis 1:27. That man was created in the image/likeness of God. He was just like you. Question: If he was created in the image/likeness of God how could he become like God? He was already like God when created. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: No, God does not lie. I have a problem with an interpretation that teaches that Adam was made on Day #1 but Man was created on Day #6. That is probably a wrong interpretation of that passage.
I think God would have to have lied if it is a wrong interpretation. So why not answer the two questions you failed to answer? 1. Does the text say, "these are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created"? YES/NO 2. Does the text say, "in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens"? YES/NO If God can't lie He said through Moses "these are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. He then narrowed it down to the DAY He created the heaven and the earth. Could this have been accomplished over a long period of existence? Sure. God is existence. He has always existed and will always exist. Time is a little segment of eternal existence marked off for mankind. But time was not marked off until darkness closed out the first light period DAY in which God created the heaven and the earth. There is no way to measure that time other than by science. Science tell us it was billions of years. I think they are off a few trillion, trillion, trillion,Unvigintillion, Unvigintillion, years if there was any real way to measure that existence. (That is my imagination working) Because time did not exist only an eternal period of light, DAY. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: Let’s start with the possible meanings of Yom; The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (1980, Moody Press) "It can denote: 1. the period of light (as contrasted with the period of darkness), 2. the period of twenty-four hours, 3. a general vague "time," 4. a point of time, 5. a year (in the plural; I Sam 27:7; Ex 13:10, etc.)." #1 The period of Light. Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, #2. The period of twenty-four hours, God called a light period and a dark period the second day. Genesis 1:8 And the evening and the morning were the second day. The primary meaning matches God's definition.The secondary meaning matches God's definition. That is all the definitions God has anything else is manufactured by mankind.
jaywill writes: from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]:--age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, end, evening, (for)ever(lasting), ever(more), full, life, as long as (...live), even now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, required, season, since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), whole (age), (full) year (-ly), younger From an unused root meaning to be hot: these words belong in the Etymology. Everything else is commentary.
jaywill writes: As you can see, Hebrew dictionaries attest to the fact that the word Yom is used for anywhere from 12 hours up to a year, and even a vague "time period" of unspecified length. I have no problem with a light period lasting for a very long time. We have one that lasted from the beginning until darkness in Genesis 1:2. We will have another when we have the New Heaven and the New Earth.
John writes: Revvelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. jaywill writes: It is interesting to note that in 67 verses in the Old Testament, the word Yom is translated into the English word "time." For instance, in Genesis 4:3, it says "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months. If Genesis 4:3 took place in the DAY the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth as the text declares there was only a light period.
jaywill writes: Again, in Deuteronomy 10:10, it refers to a "time" equal to forty days. What is wrong with a plural of days being refered to as time? One day is not refered to as time. But a plural of days.
jaywill writes: In I Kings 11:42, it says "And the time that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years." In this case, Yom translated as the word "time" is equivalent to a 40 year period. Had days been used instead of time it would have been a more correct translation. When yowm is plural it means a multiple of day which equals days.
jaywill writes: Four times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "year." In I Kings 1:1, "David was old and stricken in years..." So why did they not translate it days. Would have meant the same.
jaywill writes: In 2 Chronicles 21:19, "after the end of two years" and in the very next verse "Thirty and two years old." Lets back up a few verses.
2Ch 21:5 Jehoram 3088 [was] thirty 7970 and two 8147 years 8141 old 1121 when he began to reign 4427 , and he reigned 4427 eight 8083 years 8141 in Jerusalem 3389. The number in these verses are strong's numbers.Notice the number for years 8141 shaneh (in pl. only), This Hebrew word means: 1) year a) as division of time b) as measure of time c) as indication of age d) a lifetime (of years of life) Now to the verse you mentioned.
2Ch 21:19 And it came to pass, that in process of time 3117, after 3318 6256 the end 7093 of two 8147 years 3117, his bowels 4578 fell out 3318 by reason 5973 of his sickness 2483: so he died 4191 of sore 7451 diseases 8463. And his people 5971 made 6213 no burning 8316 for him, like the burning 8316 of his fathers 1. Notice the number for the word translated years 3117 is yowmIf you will notice "And it came to pass, that in process of time" is all translated from yowm Do you think it possible the writer forgot what the word for years was in the course of 14 verses? Or was the translators taking liberty to try to make the Hebrew language understandable.
jaywill writes: Finally, in Amos 4:4, "...and your tithes after three years." Amo 4:4 Come 935 to Bethel 1008, and transgress 6586 ; at Gilgal 1537 multiply 7235 transgression 6586 ; and bring 935 your sacrifices 2077 every morning 1242, [and] your tithes 4643 after three 7969 years 3117: The words in the Hebrew would be: Come 935 Bethel 1008, transgress 6586 ; Gilgal 1537 multiply 7235 transgression 6586 ; bring 935 sacrifices 2077 morning 1242, tithes 4643 three 7969 days 3117: This is word for word translation. The writer knew the Hebrew word for years as it appears in Amos 2:10 and 5:25.
jaywill writes: In each case, Yom represents years, not days. In no case does yowm repesent years. In the verses you presented the translators used years instead of days. So the translators was telling you it was years instead of days. The meaning of words do not change. The translators did try to make the Hebrew language understandable. You should have see us as we tried speak as they did and understand their language in Hebrew class. It was a comedy in action.
jaywill writes: Eight times in the Old Testament Yom is translated "age." These range from sentences like "stricken in age," meaning old age (Genesis 18:11 and 24:1; Gen 18:11 Now Abraham 85 and Sarah 8283 [were] old 2205 [and] well stricken 935 in age 3117; [and] it ceased 2308 to be with Sarah 8283 after the manner 734 of women 802. Gen 24:1 And Abraham 85 was old 2204 , [and] well stricken 935 in age 3117: and the LORD 3068 had blessed 1288 Abraham 85 in all things. Days would have given the same meaning and been an accurate translation. In Gen 25:8 Then Abraham 85 gave up the ghost 1478 , and died 4191 in a good 2896 old age 7872, an old man 2205, and full 7649 [of years]; and was gathered 622 to his people 5971.
The Hebrew word seybah which means age was used so Moses knew what word to use for age.
jaywill writes: Joshua 23:1 and 23:2), Jos 23:1 And it came to pass a long 7227 time 3117 after 310 that the LORD 3068 had given rest 5117 unto Israel 3478 from all their enemies 341 round about 5439, that Joshua 3091 waxed old 2204 [and] stricken 935 in age 3117. Jos 23:2 And Joshua 3091 called 7121 for all Israel 3478, [and] for their elders 2205, and for their heads 7218, and for their judges 8199 , and for their officers 7860 , and said 559 unto them, I am old 2204 [and] stricken 935 in age 3117: Days would give the same meaning.
jaywill writes: and other times it says "old age" (Genesis 21:2, Genesis 21:7). Gen 21:2 For Sarah 8283 conceived 2029 , and bare 3205 Abraham 85 a son 1121 in his old age 2208, at the set time 4150 of which God 430 had spoken 1696 to him. Gen 21:7 And she said 559 , Who would have said 4448 unto Abraham 85, that Sarah 8283 should have given children 1121 suck 3243 ? for I have born 3205 [him] a son 1121 in his old age 2208. The number 2208 Hebrew word zaqun means 1) old age, extreme old age. If you pay close attention 2208 is used in both verses. Your source sucks they can't even get verses where yowm is translated as something other than day or days.
jaywill writes: Genesis 47:28 refers to "the whole age of Jacob," therefore yom here refers to an entire lifetime. Gen 47:28 And Jacob 3290 lived 2421 in the land 776 of Egypt 4714 seventeen 6240 7651 years 8141: so the whole age 2416 3117 of Jacob 3290 was an hundred 3967 forty 705 8141 and seven 7651 years 8141. so the whole age 2416 31172416 Hebrew word chay meaning 1) living, alive 3117 yowm Hebrew word meaning day or days in this case. Please notice Moses knew the word for years 3141 shaneh (in pl.),
jaywill writes: In Zechariah 8:4, it says old men and women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, "each with cane in hand because of his age." Zec 8:4 Thus saith 559 the LORD 3068 of hosts 6635; There shall yet old men 2205 and old women 2205 dwell 3427 in the streets 7339 of Jerusalem 3389, and every man 376 with his staff 4938 in his hand 3027 for very 7230 age 3117. for very 7230 Hebrew word rob means 1) multitude, abundance, greatness. What would have been wrong with translating the words which would have said multitude days?
jaywill writes: Ago One time Yom is translated "ago." 1 Samuel 9:20 says "As for the donkeys you lost three days ago, ..." 1Sa 9:20 And as for thine asses 860 that were lost 6 three 7969 days 3117 ago 3117, set 7760 not thy mind 3820 on them; for they are found 4672 . And on whom [is] all the desire 2532 of Israel 3478? [Is it] not on thee, and on all thy father's 1 house 1004? 3117 appears in the Hebrew text only one time so the second one was added by the translators unless they had a different text than my program has, and it has several.
jaywill writes: Always Four times yom is translated as "always," in Deuteronomy 5:29, 6:24, 14:23, and in 2 Chronicles 18:7. Always here can be interpreted as a lifetime...for instance, we are to keep the commandments of the Lord always (Deut. 5:29). Deu 5:29 O that there were such 2088 an 4310 heart 3824 in them 5414 , that they would fear 3372 me, and keep 8104 all my commandments 4687 always 3117, that it might be well 3190 with them, and with their children 1121 for ever 5769! I would have translated yowm as daily.
Deu 6:24 And the LORD 3068 commanded 6680 us to do 6213 all these statutes 2706, to fear 3372 the LORD 3068 our God 430, for our good 2896 always 3117, that he might preserve us alive 2421 , as [it is] at this day 3117. Again daily. I wonder why your source did not use
Deu 11:12 A land 776 which the LORD 3068 thy God 430 careth for 1875 : the eyes 5869 of the LORD 3068 thy God 430 [are] always 8548 upon it, from the beginning 7225 of the year 8141 even unto the end 319 of the year 8141. always 8548 Hebrew word tamiyd which means 1) continuity, perpetuity, to stretch.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat 398 before 6440 the LORD 3068 thy God 430, in the place 4725 which he shall choose 977 to place 7931 his name 8034 there, the tithe 4643 of thy corn 1715, of thy wine 8492, and of thine oil 3323, and the firstlings 1062 of thy herds 1241 and of thy flocks 6629; that thou mayest learn 3925 to fear 3372 the LORD 3068 thy God 430 always 3117. Daily would suffice. I wonder why your source did not use:
1Ch 16:15 Be ye mindful 2142 always 5769 of his covenant 1285; the word 1697 [which] he commanded 6680 to a thousand 505 generations 1755; always 5769 another Hebrew word `owlam which means 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, You see the Hebrew language had words that was not used.
2Ch 18:7 And the king 4428 of Israel 3478 said 559 unto Jehoshaphat 3092, [There is] yet one 259 man 376, by whom we may enquire 1875 of the LORD 3068: but I hate 8130 him; for he never prophesied 5012 good 2896 unto me, but always 3117 evil 7451: the same [is] Micaiah 4321 the son 1121 of Imla 3229. And Jehoshaphat 3092 said 559 , Let not the king 4428 say 559 so. unto me, but always 3117 they got a little creative with that one didn't they. It would have been better to leave it good daily....
jaywill writes: Season Three times yom is translated "season." In Genesis 40:4, "...and they continued a season in ward." Again, in Joshua 24:7, "dwelt in the wilderness a long season," and in 2 Chronicles 15:3, "...a long season Israel hath been...". In each case yom represents a multi-month period. Gen 40:4 And the captain 8269 of the guard 2876 charged 6485 Joseph 3130 with them, and he served 8334 them: and they continued a season 3117 in ward 4929. them: and they continued a season 3117, this entire phrase comes from the word yowm. Prisoners count their time in jail in days.
Jos 24:7 And when they cried 6817 unto the LORD 3068, he put 7760 darkness 3990 between you and the Egyptians 4713, and brought 935 the sea 3220 upon them, and covered 3680 them; and your eyes 5869 have seen 7200 what I have done 6213 in Egypt 4714: and ye dwelt 3427 in the wilderness 4057 a long 7227 season 3117. a long 7227 Hebrew word rab which means 1) much, many, great. season 3117 Hebrew word yowm means day, days Translation of these two words "many days". 2Ch 15:3 Now for a long 7227 season 3117 Israel 3478 [hath been] without 3808 the true 571 God 430, and without a teaching 3384 priest 3548, and without law 8451. You have the same construction here.
jaywill writes: Chronicles When used in conjunction with the word dbr, yom is translated "chronicles" (27 times). And in each instantance days would have been just as good.
jaywill writes: When used in conjunction with kwl, yom is translated as "continually" (11 times). Once, in Psalm 139:16, it is translated continuance (without the kwl). Continually is in the OT 74 times. Yowm was translated continually 10 times and daily would have been just as good, and more accurate. The Hebrew word for continually is tamiyd which means: 1) continuity, perpetuity, to stretch.
jaywill writes: In one instance, when yom is used in conjunction with kwl, Yom is translated "evermore." Deuteronomy 28:29, "...and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore;" thus representing either a lifetime or eternity. Daily would be fine. But an eternal day would be better.Because in eternity there will be only now, existence. jaywill writes: As you can see, Yom is used in a wide variety of situations related to the concept of time. Yom is not just for days...it is for time in general. How it is translated depends on the context of its use with other words. The word yowm can be used any way someone might choose to use it. But when used correctly it means day or days nothing more or less. I hope you appreciate the 4 hours I spent chasing down things that I already knew so I could point them out to you. You need to check your source material and make sure the people you are following know what they are talking about. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: Man was created as a vessel to contain God. By eating of the tree of life the man made in God's image would be filled with God. Do you remember me speaking about the glove and the hand in the glove ? Which man eat of the tree of life? If you talking about the man formed from the dust of the ground that was placed in the garden with the tree of life who ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He was drove out of the garden so he could not eat of the tree and live forever in a sinful condition.
Moses writes: Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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