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Author Topic:   Chance as a sole-product of the Universe
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 121 of 168 (787649)
07-20-2016 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
07-20-2016 12:33 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
quote:

the whole point is this: His imagination is reality.

Some unnamed theologians imagination is reality ? How could that be ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:51 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 122 of 168 (787650)
07-20-2016 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
07-20-2016 12:41 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
no what I mean is that i believe that Gods imagination is reality. When God imagines, he does not dream or fantasize about what already is. He creates by imagining.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:41 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:57 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 123 of 168 (787651)
07-20-2016 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Phat
07-20-2016 12:51 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Oh. But I asked why the imagination of this theologian you quoted was better than reality. He certainly seems to think so. And really that's the underlying point of the quote.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 1:30 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 124 of 168 (787652)
07-20-2016 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
07-20-2016 12:57 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
well...you have a point. But tell me...are these types of unsupported assertions the mark of arrogance simply for valuing faith over evidence?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 12:57 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 07-20-2016 2:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 127 by jar, posted 07-20-2016 8:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12969
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 125 of 168 (787654)
07-20-2016 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
07-20-2016 1:30 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Refusing to even fairly consider the work of others would seem to be a mark of arrogance, yes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 1:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 126 of 168 (787664)
07-20-2016 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Phat
07-20-2016 12:33 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

the whole point is this: His imagination is reality. There is no probability involved. Is that arrogant to state? To me it is even more arrogant for people to claim that random sequences of events produced Cosmological creation by chance. It shows that people value randomness more than belief in certainty.

Word salad Phat.

What it really shows is that people value evidence over belief. A belief, no matter how certain someone holds it should change we evidence refutes it and no belief should never be held as certain.

Phat writes:

Would you dismiss God as unknown? (apart from the character of legend and mythos)

Until such time as there is sufficient evidence to support the actual existence of God then you should at least admit it is only a belief and not a certainty.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 12:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 4:09 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 127 of 168 (787665)
07-20-2016 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
07-20-2016 1:30 AM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

well...you have a point. But tell me...are these types of unsupported assertions the mark of arrogance simply for valuing faith over evidence?

I would not call it arrogance but simply foolishness.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 1:30 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13459
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 128 of 168 (787680)
07-20-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
07-19-2016 7:12 PM


Re: What do you mean by chance ?
Phat writes:

Because if there was even the slightest possibility of chance, God would be an anachronism.


God is an anachronism. He has been ever since we started looking for the real answers to our questions. It has nothing to do with chance. Even if God does exist, He isn't the answer to anything.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 07-19-2016 7:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 3:39 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 129 of 168 (787687)
07-20-2016 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by ringo
07-20-2016 11:56 AM


Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
This must be your belief. I have nothing more to say.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by ringo, posted 07-20-2016 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 07-21-2016 11:49 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9589
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 130 of 168 (787689)
07-20-2016 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
07-20-2016 8:12 AM


Reality 101
jar writes:

What it really shows is that people value evidence over belief. A belief, no matter how certain someone holds it should change we evidence refutes it and no belief should never be held as certain.

This is where you and I disagree.

  • Lets start with personal beliefs.
    You have always maintained your guiding precept in regards to belief is "Logic, Reason, and Reality."
    I have maintained that my belief is that there is literally a spiritual war of sorts between truth and fiction, good and evil, god and satan. You were taught: "Hell? fuggedabodit!" Having a Jewish Mother as an influence in rational thought coupled with critical thinking professors at an Episcopal boarding school also contributed to your rejection of the standard party lines, sound-bites, and precepts of modern day Christianity. You state:
    quote:
    I happen to subscribe to the dogma as out lined in the Nicene Creed but I do not pretend that it is reasonable, logical, rational or understandable.
    Thus you believe that your faith is irrational. You have provided no evidence that your faith and/or belief includes the idea that God is even approachable. You continually ask "How do we know....." which I can respect in regards to engaging educated skeptics and unbelievers in rational discussions regarding this whole "God" thing....but it is perhaps not the best way to approach belief because you value evidence over belief. So do most of them, however.

  • Then we have the Bible.
    You say:
    You would think that if the Bible actually was the inerrant word of God there would at least be one universal list of what books would be included.
    Thus humans have always disagreed what authority scripture and sacred writings actually have. You have also mentioned a time or two that
    I don't reject Bible verses; I just point out that the way people use them does not lead to something reasonable, logical understandable or rational.
    . We get it. In your opinion the concept of belief in general is irrational. I believe differently. I believe that belief is stronger than evidence.

    You mention this to be akin to foolishness. While I admit that many of the CCOI need a good dose of critical thinking and a healthy understanding of reality, I also believe we all could be wrong about what reality actually is.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 126 by jar, posted 07-20-2016 8:12 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 131 by jar, posted 07-20-2016 4:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 29183
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.7


    (1)
    Message 131 of 168 (787690)
    07-20-2016 4:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 130 by Phat
    07-20-2016 4:09 PM


    Re: Reality 101
    Phat writes:

    We get it. In your opinion the concept of belief in general is irrational. I believe differently. I believe that belief is stronger than evidence.

    You mention this to be akin to foolishness. While I admit that many of the CCOI need a good dose of critical thinking and a healthy understanding of reality, I also believe we all could be wrong about what reality actually is.

    And is there any evidence that reality might be different than it actually is?

    And is there any reason that belief should be stronger than evidence?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 130 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 4:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13459
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.7


    (1)
    Message 132 of 168 (787754)
    07-21-2016 11:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 129 by Phat
    07-20-2016 3:39 PM


    Re: Our Belief Is Freely Chosen
    Phat writes:

    This must be your belief.


    Lack of belief is not a belief.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 129 by Phat, posted 07-20-2016 3:39 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 136 by Phat, posted 07-21-2016 7:12 PM ringo has responded

      
    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4600
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    Message 133 of 168 (787776)
    07-21-2016 5:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
    07-17-2016 8:39 PM


    Re: What do you mean by chance ?
    The thread is very old phat, I wrote the opening message in 2006.

    I think I was trying to basically say that you can't necessarily assume that something that exists as part of this universe, operated or existed before the universe. That is to put the cart before the horse. Which is logically and indeed BASICally, correct.

    Is it parsimonious to assume random chance or anything else we know is part of this universe, existed before the universe?

    If the universe was randomly created, meaning things can happen in a way consistent with this universe as we understand them, then obviously that assumes that the dice can be rolled before the dice exist.

    I think it is more parsimonious to at least suggest that it might not be intellectually FAIR to simply give a pre-universe existence attributes nobody can know could exist without there first being a universe to exist.

    I find it amusing that some atheists say that nothing is very complicated - when I say nothing existed, I mean the absence of all things. If you are saying there WAS something before the universe existed, then obviously that is a contradiction because how can something be nothing?

    It's a play on words alright, but not from theists. We stick to the definition - nothing means nothing, if there was nothing then "something" can't pop up according to the laws of the universe, if those laws only exist when there is a universe, and those properties only exist if the universe is present.

    It seems to me, people simply argue from credulity, they believe everything can happen naturally so they conclude it did, even though intelligent design is on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to the probability of something fine-tuned and orderly with specified complexity, coming about.

    Am I wrong to suggest that writing on the sand is more probable as coming from an intelligent designer, than it is from being created by the waves of the sea?

    The fact is the universe and life, are far more specific and purposeful than writing on sand.

    Is that not reasonable? Of course it is, these are all reasonable assumptions based on reality. There is no reality to the believe that something designed can create itself but we have millions of designs coming about BY purposeful design, every year.

    Good to hear from you again Phat. (I also remember that I accepted evolution-theory in 2006 for personal reasons, not for intellectual reasons. Basically I went through a rough time so I took it out on God.)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 104 by Phat, posted 07-17-2016 8:39 PM Phat has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 5:38 PM mike the wiz has responded

      
    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 15948
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 5.0


    Message 134 of 168 (787781)
    07-21-2016 5:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 133 by mike the wiz
    07-21-2016 5:18 PM


    Re: What do you mean by chance ?
    The fact is the universe and life, are far more specific and purposeful than writing on sand.

    (The proof is left as an exercise for the reader.)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by mike the wiz, posted 07-21-2016 5:18 PM mike the wiz has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 135 by mike the wiz, posted 07-21-2016 5:51 PM Dr Adequate has responded

      
    mike the wiz
    Member
    Posts: 4600
    From: u.k
    Joined: 05-24-2003


    Message 135 of 168 (787783)
    07-21-2016 5:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 134 by Dr Adequate
    07-21-2016 5:38 PM


    Re: What do you mean by chance ?
    (The proof is left as an exercise for the reader.)

    That is true but I have done my homework and I don't believe the readers have. For example I have studied the elements of intelligent design to see if they are contained in lifeforms, what we usually find in things we know to be designed such as sophisticated animated designs, is usually of the following which isn't just a list but has to be understood by studying why they apply:

    - Specified complexity
    - Irreducible complexity (I am not arguing that it always applies to any feature)
    - Congruity of all parts aimed towards an overal goal and sub-goals
    - Contingency planning
    - Correct materials.
    - Ingenious solutions to difficult problems
    - Information
    - Information storage density
    - Directed energy
    - Aesthetics and symmetry
    - Clear goals and sub-goals.

    Dr A, for me personally, I think intelligent design isn't the elephant in the room, bur rather it is akin to a thousand elephants in a matchbox.

    I don't want to turn this thread into a, "Mike, please prove I.D, thread" so don't you think it is at least fair to say that the things you yourself might call "appearance of design" are at least expected-evidence if the universe is designed?

    That is to say, if the universe is designed then we would expect to find intelligent design, and since the only way we could know it was there was to find out what makes something intelligently designed in the first place then basically I am arguing the same argument as the Law Of Identity. (X is X).

    In the form of a formal syllogism it looks like this;

    Every element that makes a human makes them human.
    Dr A has the elements of human(human DNA, anatomy, and so forth)
    Therefore Dr A is human.

    To read more about this issue, you may want to read the first message of the following topic but I don't wish to get into the I.D debate again because I've done it so many times now I almost fall asleep if it is mentioned:

    http://evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?/topic/6586...

    (this thread isn't to insult those that accept evolution, it isn't even an attempt to actually argue I.D, it is an illustration of how difficult it really is to BE objective about I.D, in real terms.)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 134 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 5:38 PM Dr Adequate has responded

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     Message 137 by Tangle, posted 07-21-2016 7:20 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
     Message 138 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2016 10:28 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

      
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