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Author Topic:   This just in, Wisconsin Senators Pass Bill Pushing Abstinence Over Contraception
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 117 (639772)
11-03-2011 6:51 PM


What's the Problem?
Maybe this comes from having not actually read the bill itself but only the article in the OP, but I am unsure as to what the real problem here is.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2011 7:45 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 117 (639816)
11-04-2011 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by NoNukes
11-03-2011 7:45 PM


Re: What's the Problem?
So you didn't notice that the bill legislates providing bogus mis-information to kids?
They may be doing it for all the wrong reasons, but I see nothing wrong with requiring that teachers teach the truth.
I mean... abstinence is, afterall, more effective than any other form of contraceptive available.
But, then again, like I said: I haven't read the actual bill, which might be much more sinister than the article in the OP makes it out to be.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 11-03-2011 7:45 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 8:43 AM Jon has replied
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 10:34 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 117 (639853)
11-04-2011 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
11-04-2011 8:43 AM


Re: What's the Problem?
What you've said would be the truth, but teaching that abstinence is the only effective means would not be teaching the truth.
But they aren't teaching abstinence only; as the article said:
quote:
Wisconsin Senators Pass Controversial Bill Pushing Abstinence Over Contraception in Sex Ed from Fox News:
A state law was passed last year by Democrats, requiring schools that offer sex education to include information on contraception methods.
Otherwise, what was the point of your saying anything at all, if you did not form your opinion based on what was posted and you have not read the article.
I did read the article. I just haven't read the actual bill. News stories often misrepresent key details of stories, but since the OP was started based on the article, I'm willing to base my posts on that for now.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 8:43 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 1:37 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 117 (639855)
11-04-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
11-04-2011 10:34 AM


Re: What's the Problem?
That's a common error: abstinence is only about 80% effective as a means of contraception.
But, of course, I was talking about actual abstinence, not attempted abstinence.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 10:34 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Omnivorous, posted 11-04-2011 1:43 PM Jon has replied
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 2:45 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 117 (639869)
11-04-2011 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Omnivorous
11-04-2011 1:43 PM


Re: What's the Problem?
The law at hand is a tactic to increase the number of schoolkids who receive abstinence-only sex ed.
I agree that it is a step in that direction. But as the article states, Wisconsin still requires other contraceptive methods be taught; so this new bill doesn't push reasonable sex ed completely out the door.
We know how well policies of abstinence work, even among those taking the most profound religious vows: not as well as the most failure-prone method of contraception.
Yes, an abstinence only policy/plan is a sure-fire failure. But that isn't what Wisconsin has here.
All proponents of abstinence-only sex ed should practice actual abstinence. The situation would improve in just a few decades.
With the world population just recently hitting the 7 bill. mark, I couldn't agree more.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Omnivorous, posted 11-04-2011 1:43 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 3:12 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 117 (639896)
11-04-2011 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
11-04-2011 3:12 PM


Re: What's the Problem?
Jon writes:
But as the article states, Wisconsin still requires other contraceptive methods be taught; so this new bill doesn't push reasonable sex ed completely out the door.
The article states no such thing. The article states that the teaching of contraceptive methods is not prohibited. And other sources say that the law would leave no requirement to teach contraception in any way.
Perhaps I am misreading this part then:
quote:
Wisconsin Senators Pass Controversial Bill Pushing Abstinence Over Contraception in Sex Ed from Fox News:
A state law was passed last year by Democrats, requiring schools that offer sex education to include information on contraception methods.
Is there something about this that I'm not reading right?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 3:12 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 8:15 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 117 (639897)
11-04-2011 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
11-04-2011 2:45 PM


Re: What's the Problem?
Obviously the failure rate of a procedure excluding all failures is zero percent. By this definition, using condoms and excluding all condom failure modes also results in a success rate of 100%.
Good thing I didn't say we should exclude all failures.
What I said was that it is ridiculous to include in a study about the effectiveness of the use of 'X' incidents in which 'X' was never used.
Condoms may have more failure modalities - there's only two ways to fail at abstinence - but those modalities are all much rarer.
You simply cannot say you practiced abstinence but got pregnant/an STD anyway. If you got either of those, you didn't practice abstinence. Just like if you had sex without a condom, you didn't use a condom. If you have sex without practicing abstinence, you didn't practice abstinence.
How does a support beam fail on a nonexistent bridge?
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 2:45 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by frako, posted 11-04-2011 5:46 PM Jon has replied
 Message 42 by Rrhain, posted 11-04-2011 7:54 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 8:22 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 117 (639901)
11-04-2011 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by frako
11-04-2011 5:46 PM


Re: What's the Problem?
Well what he ment to say is that its harder for teens to practice abstinence then to put on a condom, in fact putting on a condom is wayyyy easier for teens then to practice abstinence
I don't think that's what Crashfrog is saying, but he will have to correct one of us.
Just remember how horny u used to be in those days so its a good idea to let them learn about other options as well.
I'm not really all that old. Plus, I never said it wasn't a good idea to teach 'other options' as well. In fact, I think teaching abstinence only is stupid and that a sex ed course could easily be highly effective without ever mentioning abstinence at all.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by frako, posted 11-04-2011 5:46 PM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 8:29 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 117 (639925)
11-04-2011 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by crashfrog
11-04-2011 8:22 PM


Re: What's the Problem?
What you're talking about is a reporting error and has nothing to do with the actual effectiveness of the method in question.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 8:22 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2011 10:00 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 117 (639927)
11-04-2011 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
11-04-2011 8:15 PM


Re: What's the Problem?
At least according to the article and according to other reporting I've read, the bill does away with the original requirement to teach contraception. Under the Republican bill, teaching abstinence only would be just fine.
And that's not what I read in the article at all.
When I get a chance, I'll have to see if I can dig up the current law and compare it to the present bill to see what is actually set out in them.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 8:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 11-04-2011 11:17 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 58 by NoNukes, posted 11-05-2011 12:51 AM Jon has not replied

  
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