Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 115 (8796 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-19-2017 11:29 PM
343 online now:
DC85, DrJones*, halibut (3 members, 340 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: Astrophile, Flyer75
Post Volume:
Total: 820,880 Year: 25,486/21,208 Month: 1,113/2,338 Week: 234/450 Day: 54/52 Hour: 1/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
23456
...
16NextFF
Author Topic:   How did the Aborigines get to Australia?
Portillo
Member (Idle past 1719 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 1 of 226 (645800)
12-29-2011 9:05 PM


One question that comes up alot when discussing Noahs Flood is how did the kangaroos/wallabies get to Australia. When humans evolved in Africa 200,000 years ago, the Aboriginals got to Australia by boat and foot. If the Aboriginal people can get to Australia why is it unbelievable to believe that kangaroos/wallabies can get there?

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.

Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.


And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2011 8:21 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Granny Magda, posted 12-30-2011 8:27 AM Portillo has responded
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 12-30-2011 8:59 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 12-30-2011 9:29 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 10 by nwr, posted 12-30-2011 9:59 AM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 19 by ProtoTypical, posted 12-30-2011 6:29 PM Portillo has not yet responded
 Message 137 by Pressie, posted 01-16-2012 3:41 AM Portillo has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12533
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 2 of 226 (645802)
12-30-2011 7:59 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the How did the Aborigines get to Australia? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 226 (645804)
12-30-2011 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Portillo
12-29-2011 9:05 PM


Are you seriously suggesting that kangaroos can build boats ???
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Portillo, posted 12-29-2011 9:05 PM Portillo has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2338
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.3


(6)
Message 4 of 226 (645805)
12-30-2011 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Portillo
12-29-2011 9:05 PM


Biogeography
Because wallabies are useless at building boats?

Seriously, there are hundreds of species of marsupial in Australasia, along with an extensive fossil record. There are no marsupials in the Middle East. Disagree? Please show me the fossil evidence for Asian wallabies. Even suggesting that marsupials came from Asia in a big boat is simply childish and silly.

Have you heard of the Wallace Line? It's a notional line drawn through Indonesia. On the Asian side of the line we see Asian wildlife. On the Australian side of the line, with very few exceptions (crab-eating macaques and some species of bat), we see Australasian wildlife. This is a fantastic example of what's called biogeography; the study of the distribution of living things. Biogeography provides some of the very best evidence for the ToE and the differences between Australian and Asian organisms is a good example.

It's not just a question of Noah dropping off a few kangaroos, it's more a question of entire ecosystems evolving in concert, over hundreds of thousands of years. It's a question of the Australian fossil record, which goes completely against your rather naive Bible stories.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Portillo, posted 12-29-2011 9:05 PM Portillo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Portillo, posted 01-01-2012 12:52 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3506
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 5 of 226 (645807)
12-30-2011 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Portillo
12-29-2011 9:05 PM


When humans evolved in Africa 200,000 years ago, the Aboriginals got to Australia by boat and foot. If the Aboriginal people can get to Australia why is it unbelievable to believe that kangaroos/wallabies can get there?

Um, haven't you answered your own question here? Only humans can build boats.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Portillo, posted 12-29-2011 9:05 PM Portillo has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 6 of 226 (645809)
12-30-2011 9:28 AM


Forget about the boats?
While the boat comment is misguided, it does turn out that kangaroos are really good swimmers. Perhaps an argument might be made that kangaroos could have island hopped their way onto an island that is merely a really arduous swimming distance away from Australia.

Portillio seems to be addressing the question of how kangaroos got to the ark, and then returned to Australia after the great flood was over. I'm not sure I find his answer satisfactory, or why he bothers. Surely God could have overcome whatever difficulties faced the kangaroos.

But as has already been pointed out, the question people ask about kangaroos is a considerably different from the question as phrased by Portillio. We know that man migrated to Australia, but we also see that man is present in every single location between Egypt and Australia. On the other hand, there don't seem to be any kangaroos in the Middle East, while there is evidence of kangaroos evolving in Australia.


    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19085
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 7 of 226 (645810)
12-30-2011 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Portillo
12-29-2011 9:05 PM


Hi Portillo,

One question that comes up alot when discussing Noahs Flood is how did the kangaroos/wallabies get to Australia.

From Message 386 on the That boat don't float thread:

quote:
Yes, the pertinent question is how did all the species get to the places where they are found today, many with no known intermediates between their location and a single place where the ark was purported to land.

How did koalas get to Australia without any koalas left in between?
How did they survive the journey without eucalyptus trees along the way and no evidence of them anywhere but Australia?

And the question is not just one of getting from A to B, but also why that specific B for each species and no other - why no koalas in North America? Why no koalas in England?

Why do we end up with the distribution pattern seen today?


The question is more complex than just kangaroos/wallabies, but how did the whole Australian ecosystem get to Australia without leaving any evidence along the path?

Same for South America and North America, Europe, Asia and Africa.

Look at the Koala, it is a poor swimmer and it only eats eucalyptus leaves, and you only find (historical) evidence of koalas and eucalyptus trees in Australia.

Science answer: they evolved there.

Creationist answer: ? (careful - I've heard some doozies)

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Portillo, posted 12-29-2011 9:05 PM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by foreveryoung, posted 01-02-2012 2:54 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 152 by Lithodid-Man, posted 07-10-2012 1:12 PM RAZD has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29441
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 8 of 226 (645811)
12-30-2011 9:31 AM


What should be asked.
This thread is a great example of the Creationists mind set and ability to even frame a question worthy of serious investigation.

First, let's take a look at what the evidence shows.

There is more than ample fossil evidence that kangaroos and wallabies and even wallaroos were in Australia not just long before man arrived but rather millions of years before man arrived.

There is zero evidence of any kangaroos, wallabies or even wallaroos in the Middle East at anytime before zoos.

So the proper Biblical Flood related question is "How did Noah get the 'roos he needed to load onto the Ark to replenish those that got wiped out in the Biblical Flood?"

Did Noah build a boat and go get them?

Did the 'roos hop on water to come to the Middle East?

Maybe the God in the Biblical Flood Myths parted the Indian Ocean so that two pair (or seven pair) of 'roos could hop over to Thailand and up through Burma and India and Pakistan and Iran and Iraq?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16029
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 9 of 226 (645812)
12-30-2011 9:38 AM


About boats...
I was assuming Portillo meant that when humans repopulated Australia they would have brought their favorite marsupials with them. But I guess he could instead be thinking that they reached Australia the same way islands can become populated by immigrant species that arrive via floating vegetation.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-30-2011 1:57 PM Percy has responded

    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5538
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


(6)
Message 10 of 226 (645814)
12-30-2011 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Portillo
12-29-2011 9:05 PM


Compared with the more usual critters, the Kangaroo is a quite remarkable animal.

It is implausible that there could have been a Kangaroo in the middle East at the time of Noah, but that no mention was made of such a remarkable animal. Yet there is no mention of it in the Bible.

Having grown up in Australia, I can tell you that it is pretty much impossible for an Australian to believe that Noah's flood extended to Australia. For that matter, it is pretty much impossible for an Australian to believe that the Australian aborigines are descendents of Adam.

Ken Ham is the exception that proves this rule

On a related note, I recently saw this in the blog of Peter Enns:

quote:

Nearly twenty years ago, my oldest was six years old. One of our bedtime routines was a brief Bible reading.

One evening we found ourselves in the Garden of Eden story—Adam and Eve, a piece of fruit, and a snake with vocal chords.

As I read, my son kept sighing, as if impatient with my reading. Being the only Old Testament expert in the room, I ignored him and kept going.

But he kept sighing. He even had the audacity to interrupt me.

“Daddy, snakes can’t talk.”

The woman said to the serpent, “we may eat fruit from the tr….”

“Daddy. Snakes. Can’t. Talk.”


http://www.patheos.com/...r-on-the-raising-of-young-heretics

A six year old child, even though raised in an evangelical family, can tell that the Adam and Eve story is a fable, a "Just So" story. Apparenty, you have to be grown up to be stupid enough to believe that the Adam and Eve story and the Noah's Ark story are actual descriptions of historical events.


Christianity claims the moral high ground in its rhetoric. It has long since abandoned the moral high ground in its practices

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Portillo, posted 12-29-2011 9:05 PM Portillo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 12-30-2011 2:03 PM nwr has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


(19)
Message 11 of 226 (645826)
12-30-2011 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
12-30-2011 9:38 AM


Re: About boats...
I was assuming Portillo meant that when humans repopulated Australia they would have brought their favorite marsupials with them.

Well, some problems:

(1) There is evidence of marsupials in Australia before humans.

(2) How did they manage that without leaving one single marsupial behind in Eurasia?

(3) Why did they have this big fetish for marsupials, and bring along all the kangaroos and wallabies and potoroos and wombats and bandicoots and Tasmanian devils and koalas and marsupial moles and ten different kinds of betong, rather than spoil their record by bringing along something useful like a sheep? What was going through their heads ... "No, sheep won't work in Australia, let's have another thing with a pouch." And let's not forget all the extinct mammals, like Diprotodon, a wombaty thing the size of a rhinoceros which they apparently thought would be useful for some reason.

(4) It is extremely unlikely that their "favorite marsupials" would have included the Tasmanian devil, an animal which Wikipedia describes as noted for its "pungent odor, extremely loud and disturbing screech [...] and ferocity"; and downright unthinkable that anyone would want to share a boat or a continent with a nine-foot tall carnivorous kangaroo (now mercifully extinct).

(5) And that's just the mammals, let's not forget the snakes and the spiders. Apparently they thought no continent would be complete without the addition of the most venomous species on earth.

(6) I can't find a shred of evidence that the Australian aborigines ever had any form of transport larger than a dugout canoe. This would present them with severe difficulties in transporting all this stuff.

But I guess he could instead be thinking that they reached Australia the same way islands can become populated by immigrant species that arrive via floating vegetation.

One would again have to ask --- why all the marsupials? We can at least imagine the first settlers being perversely selective in this way, but how could one attribute it to mere chance? And, again, one would have to ask how come no marsupials were left behind. Somehow this floating vegetation managed to separate out all the marsupials from the placental mammals, which would be an act of exceptional acumen for driftwood, which is not usually noted for its intelligence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 12-30-2011 9:38 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Trixie, posted 12-30-2011 2:18 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 12-30-2011 4:41 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 45 by saab93f, posted 01-04-2012 4:02 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9997
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 226 (645828)
12-30-2011 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by nwr
12-30-2011 9:59 AM


nwr writes:

For that matter, it is pretty much impossible for an Australian to believe that the Australian aborigines are descendents of Adam.

Could you expand on this proposition a bit? Is there some reason to believe that aborigines do not have a common origin with the rest of us?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by nwr, posted 12-30-2011 9:59 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-30-2011 2:06 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 12-30-2011 3:44 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 13 of 226 (645830)
12-30-2011 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
12-30-2011 2:03 PM


Could you expand on this proposition a bit? Is there some reason to believe that aborigines do not have a common origin with the rest of us?

I read that as him saying something about the Australians rather than the aborigines....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 12-30-2011 2:03 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Trixie
Member (Idle past 1264 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


(2)
Message 14 of 226 (645831)
12-30-2011 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Adequate
12-30-2011 1:57 PM


Re: About boats...
It's not often that a post on EvC reduces me to rolling helplessly on the floor, tears streaming down my face, all the while hee-ing and hawing like a donkey. Dr A, your post is magnificent!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-30-2011 1:57 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 12-30-2011 5:21 PM Trixie has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5538
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 15 of 226 (645840)
12-30-2011 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
12-30-2011 2:03 PM


Is there some reason to believe that aborigines do not have a common origin with the rest of us?

No, none at all. It's just that the aborigines have been around for a long time and predate the middle east civilizations. So the common ancestry would have to be from earlier than Adam.

Christianity claims the moral high ground in its rhetoric. It has long since abandoned the moral high ground in its practices

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 12-30-2011 2:03 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
1
23456
...
16NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017