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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: How can we regulate guns ... ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: And as for knives, if I'm withing 15 or 20 feet of you a knife is as great if not a greater threat than a gun. In the US (in Texas for example) can people carry around large knives (or even swords)? Are these considered legitimate methods of self defense?
jar writes: I have said that I do not consider guns to be a problem in the US Do you think gun massacres are more of a problem in the US than other comparable countries?
jar writes: In the US machine guns are already regulated and have not been used in any of the recent mass shootings. If someone decides they want to kill lots of people (in a school for example) do you agree that a machine-gun would be a rather effective method of doing that? In those recent instances where someone has decided they want to kill lots of people why didn't they use a machine gun, in your view? Did the regulation and thus relative unavailability of machine guns have anything to do with them not using this method of achieving their aim?
jar writes: Guns are irrelevant to the discussion and the problem. I don't see how the effectiveness and availability of different weapons can be irrelevant when someone decides they want to kill lots of people. Can you explain why the effectiveness and availability of weapons is irrelevant?
quote: Could you be more specific? What legislation (for or against) would you suggest/support?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: Large knives are not a big issue but someone with a sword might look a little ridiculous. Other than looking ridiculous could one walk round a mall with a samurai sword strapped to one's back? Or would you be stopped for carrying some sort of dangerous weapon?
jar writes: I think the US is far more violent than it should be, but gun massacres while a tragedy are not a serious problem. How many would have to be killed before it did constitute a serious problem in your view?
jar writes: I do not agree that a machine gun is a better way to kill lots of unarmed innocent kids that many other ways, but again, bringing up machine guns is irrelevant in the US anyway. Discussion of machine guns is pertinent in this context for the same reason discussion of knives is. Because it acts as a comparison to the methods that were actually used in terms of both effectiveness and availability. In recent massacres why didn't the perpetrator use a knife? Why didn't they use a machine gun? Why did they use a gun? The answers that seem obvious to many are: 1) They didn't use a knife because, whilst highly available, a knife is not the most effective way of achieving the aim of killing lots of people. 2) The didn't use a machine gun because, whilst highly effective at killing lots of people, machine guns are not so readily available. 3) They did use a gun because guns are both effective at killing lots of people and pretty readily available. Which part of the above analysis do you disagree with?
jar writes: Guns are irrelevant because the guns didn't do anything. They are relevant if they provide an effective and readily available means of killing people. No?
jar writes: The question we should be addressing is why the people behave as they do. Sure. But until we can figure that out and do something about it what we do know is that people do sometime behave in this way. So perhaps greatly limiting the availability of effective methods of killing people is something that should be done while we try and figure out how to bring about a utopian society where no-one ever wants to go on a killing spree. No?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Yes. That is why I included the word "comparable".
The US has a homicide rate completely out of kilter with it's status as a first world Western democracy. There are probably numerous reasons for this. But the bewildering attitude to guns as some sort of symbol of freedom is almost certainly part of the issue.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Straggler on swords writes: Or would you be stopped for carrying some sort of dangerous weapon? jar writes: I have no idea. I certainly don't see any reason someone with a samurai sword strapped to one's back should be stopped. I looked up Texas law and it seems that carrying any blade over 5 inches long in public is outright illegal. It is also similarly illegal to carry things like clubs, knuckle dusters and nunchuks. It seems very odd to make special provision for guns as a form of self defense whilst banning other weapons that could equally be argued as used to deter or defend doesn't it? Isn't this a form of special pleading for guns?
Straggler on effectiveness and availability of different weapons writes: They are relevant if they provide an effective and readily available means of killing people. No? jar writes: That depends on the specific incident. Well how about any of the recent gun massacre incidents? Was the effectiveness and availability of weapon a factor when guns were used in any of those incidents? Or is it just co-incidence guns were used instead of knives or swords or machine guns or whatever else?
Straggler writes: How many would have to be killed before it did constitute a serious problem in your view? jar writes: I don't know but certainly several orders of magnitude. jar writes: There is no need to bring about a utopian society and there are things we can do to change society. Sure. But if there isn't a significant problem to solve why do anything at all?
jar writes: There is no need to bring about a utopian society and there are things we can do to change society. Other Western nations have sought to significantly restrict access to guns as part of this. Are they wrong and misguided in your opinion? Are there any other nations whose approach to these issues you would like to emulate in the US?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: Guns are a special case, one that is specifically addressed in our Constitution. So if swords were specifically addressed in the constitution guns would probably be significantly more restricted in the US and everyone would be defending the right to carry a sword instead.....?
jar writes: The guns though did nothing. Well they provided an effective and readily available method of mass killing. Which is after all what they were designed to do.....
jar writes: It was the individual that killed people... He didn't go round killing people with his bare hands though did he? He used an effective and available tool of mass killing. A tool designed for that function.
jar writes: What other nations do and have done is really irrelevant. Well that is a rather isolationist approach. Do you apply that to all your thinking in the areas of politics and sociology? Economics? Health? Are all case studies in all areas of social policy that don't involve the US to be completely disregarded as "irrelevant".....? Or just ones pertaining to guns specifically?
jar writes: This is not other nations and what we need to do is address our national problems. This might come as a surprise but other nations have many of the same problems and have come up with ways of tackling them that might conceivably be instructive or educational (both in terms of what does work and what doesn't). In fact the best studies might (gasp!) examine many nations. Look past your own borders and you might see that human nature is pretty consistent in many ways.....
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: As I said above, in the US guns are a special case. Well they are if you insist on treating them as a special case. If you guys were to decide that guns weren't a good idea you could change things in the same way you changed things regarding slavery and voting rights for all and suchlike. The clue is in the name "amendment".....: A change or addition to a legal or statutory document. But it's not gonna happen. The whole gun things seems psychologically interwoven on a near national level with some cowboy like notion of "freedom". It's absurd. But not gonna change any time soon.
jar writes: I would say that a case could be made that swords are covered by the second amendment. And others could make a case that most private gun carrying isn't...... So what?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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jar writes: But what is your point? My initial aim in responding to you was to get past the 'jar-rut' of single sentence pointless replies insisting that you had already considered and answered everything put to you.
jar writes: Is there a point? Well since you ask...
jar writes: Guns are irrelevant because the guns didn't do anything. jar writes: What other nations do and have done is really irrelevant. jar writes: Guns are a special case, one that is specifically addressed in our Constitution.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Do you think social policy should be based upon:
A) Blind adherence to ideologically derived assumptions.B) Blind adherence to a document written 200+ years ago C) Blind adherence to the perceived wishes of some long dead 'founding fathers' D) Evidence based research jar writes: Again, you admit that guns in the US are a special case. It is only a "special case" in the sense that you choose to make it so.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Crash writes: What do you mean "kill efficiently"? Well if I wanted to walk into a school and massacre a large number of people and I had the following choice of weapons which of the following would I be best served arming myself with in order to achieve my stated aim: A) Some cutting remarksB) A pea shooter C) A feather duster D) A sharp pencil E) My fists and nothing else F) A swiss army knife G) A baseball bat E) The sort of gun used in recent massacres F) A machine gun Now throw in the availability factor of the above on top of the 'deadliness' factor and 'voila'........ We seem to have identified why it is that guns are used when people want to go on killing rampages don't we?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Do you agree that social policy is best derived from evidence based research?
If so - Do you also agree that this applies as much to the USA as anywhere else?
Straggler writes: Do you think social policy should be based upon: A) Blind adherence to ideologically derived assumptions.B) Blind adherence to a document written 200+ years ago C) Blind adherence to the perceived wishes of some long dead 'founding fathers' D) Evidence based research jar writes: If I ever suggested that social policy should be made based on: A) Blind adherence to ideologically derived assumptions.B) Blind adherence to a document written 200+ years ago C) Blind adherence to the perceived wishes of some long dead 'founding fathers' then the answers to those question might be relevant. They weren't questions. They were suggested answers to a single question. To me the answer to that question is obviously D) Evidence based research. To me this this is obviously applies to the US as much as anywhere else. But according to you the US is a "special case" so I included some other possibilities along other lines. If you have another answer feel free to reveal it.......(rather than going down the tiresome and tedious route of telling us what you didn't say)
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Do you agree that social policy is best derived from evidence based research? Or not?
jar writes: But I never said the US is a "special case". Yes you did.
jar writes: Again, you admit that guns in the US are a special case. jar writes: Guns are a special case, one that is specifically addressed in our Constitution. See - There is you asserting that the US is a "special case".
jar writes: And I have presented my ideas of how to deal with the problem of violence in the US and stated that I see no "gun" problem. quote: Link Do you dispute these findings?
jar writes: Look at Message 32 and Message 70 and Message 117. Do you think other nations have taken steps in the directions you outline (e.g. partial decriminilisation of drugs)? What can be learnt from those examples? Why not take both social measures and act on the prevalence of guns if both are factors?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Do you agree that social policy is best derived from evidence based research? Or not?
Why is this such a difficult question for you?
jar writes: Saying that guns in the US are a special case is not saying that the US is a special case. So in a discussion about gun regulation the US isn't a special case but the issue of guns in the US is a special case..... Well I am glad we cleared that up!!
jar writes: And I still see no "gun problem". Then perhaps you aren't looking?
quote: Link Do you dispute these findings?
jar writes: Look at Message 32 and Message 70 and Message 117. Do you think other nations have taken steps in the directions you outline (e.g. partial decriminilisation of drugs)? What can be learnt from those examples? Why not take both social measures and act on the prevalence of guns if both are factors?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Crash writes: Right, but I didn't ask you about what weapons would be likely to be used by people going on killing rampages. I asked you to define your term "kill efficiency." Well if you wanted to select a weapon to go on an effective killing rampage what would you select? Why did the perpetrators of recent massacres choose the weapons they did? If the term "efficiency" is causing you problem just pick another one. "Deadliness" maybe? "Effectiveness". Whatever dude. Take your pick. The English language is full of words that one could choose to make the same point.
Crash writes: It's awesome that you got a bunch of upvotes for completely avoiding the question, but it's not a "gotcha", it's a serious question I have about the terms you've chosen to use. If you don't like the term "efficiency" pick one you do like. I really don't mind what term you use as long as the conceptual meaning is clear.
Crash writes: "Efficiency" implies a ratio of some kind; you know, the way "gas efficiency" is about distance traveled per volume of gasoline consumed. I'm just wondering what the terms of your ratio are. You want to talk about ratios? FFS!!! You are a smart enough guy for this sort of ridiculous diversion tactic to be beneath you. Frankly it smacks of a losing argument on your part.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
ICANT writes: If you want to remove the guns you have to change the constitution. How about instead of removing the guns the same sort of restrictions that are applied in New York are applied across the board? Would that not be constitutional and thus a legitimate and demonstrated-to-be-effective form of regulation? Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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RAZD writes: So if the intent is to reduce gun crime, the social issues that cause crime should be addressed as well as the availability of guns, yes? CS writes: Duh. And in that case, fuck gun regulation. Poverty. Homelessness. Deep-seated inequality of opportunity. Disenfranchised people with little stake in adhering to the things that hold society together. Addiction. Gangs. Joblessness. Prejudice. Mental illness. Drugs. Anti-social behaviour. Crime. Community breakdown. Etc. Whatever the answers may or may not be to these social issues only an absolute lunatic would look at such a situation and conclude that what the situation needs is a citizenry armed with guns.
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