How can we regulate guns ... ?

It's unnecessary given the proposals on the table.

Jon argues: You will have to explain it in much more detail. What could be simpler than a plastic card with a PIN? We want to MINIMIZE the cost, don't we?

This would include everyone not being paid by the private sector jobs and earnings ...and obvious "data creep" from Romney's 47% number and just as false.Social Security is not a payment from the government, it is a dividend payment on the lifetime investment of the worker in social security, just as your pension is one from the jobs you've had and your IRA distributions are from your savings.And when you have Walmart workers collecting food stamps, that is because the pay is insufficient to reach even poverty level income -- and it doesn't mean that people collecting food stamps are not earning money, just that the money earned is insufficient to live on.If ICANT characterizes people on the government dole as being slaves then he needs to look at who is causing that "slavery" -- it's not the people and it's not the government ...The Data Behind Romney’s 47% Comments - WSJ

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According to the Census Bureau, 49% of Americans in the second quarter of 2011 lived in a household where at least one member received a government benefit. (The total population at the time was 305 million).

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That’s up from 30% in the 1980s and 44.4% in the third quarter of 2008, a recent growth in part attributable to the bad economy of President Obama’s first term.

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The Census Bureau broke the data down like this:

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• 26.4% of U.S. households had someone enrolled in Medicaid (the health-care program for low-income Americans)
• 16.2% of households had at least one member receiving Social Security.
• 15.8% lived in a household receiving food stamps
• 14.9% had a member with Medicare benefits
• 4.5% of households received assistance with their rent
• 1.7% had a member receiving unemployment benefits.

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The large majority of Medicare and Social Security recipients have paid payroll taxes in many cases for decades to qualify for those benefits.

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There can be a lot of overlap in which programs benefit certain households. For example, millions of people receiving Social Security benefits also receive Medicare health benefits. Many Americans covered by Medicaid are also receiving food stamp benefits.

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So you can't just add the numbers up because that is double or triple counting some people.You also cannot legitimately include social security (16.2%), medicare (14.9%) and unemployment (1.7%) when those are funded by payroll deductions and not from the federal budget. These are dividends on investments made while working, a concept that republicans should be familiar with.15.8% lived in a household receiving food stampsWhen you look at Walmart employees being forced to use food stamps because the wages paid are not sufficient to live on, then it is not the government causing those people to use food stamps, it is not the people choosing to use food stamps, it is the inadequate pay for honest work that is making people take this path. Make a living wage mandatory and you will reduce this number.26.4% of U.S. households had someone enrolled in Medicaid (the health-care program for low-income Americans)Wallmart also forces employees to use Medicaid rather than supply a company health program -- so this too is more of an issue with inadequate pay for honest work than a matter of people choosing to use a government system. Make companies have health insurance for all employees and you will reduce this number ... oh wait that would be Obamacare ...Tax paying americans effectively subsidize Walmart so can get away with pocketing obscene profits while impoverishing the workers that actually make the money. Sounds like slavery to me.You want to be upset about government spending on assistance then Walmart is a better target. If you really want to get serious about cutting costs there are much better targets. Oil for instance, and the military industrial complex and obscene US military budget (could be cut to 1/3rd and still be the biggest in the world).Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : slavers

Like the labor in for-profit prisons? Lol. Actually there is a US census report that this is misquoted from ...Enjoy

Curiously, I don't expect there to be a sudden and immediate cessation in ammunition supply for the guns "depraved" people want to use.I expect it to be a long term process, with a lot of attrition, and I expect it to reduce the flow of such ammunition.I expect less demand as rational people put those types of guns away in safe places so that they cannot be used for mass killings.In fact I'd be happy with a law that you are buried with your guns, so that they are still in your cold dead hands ... EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : dead handsEdited by RAZD, : "depraved" from ICANT's previous usage

I don't understand what purpose this would serve.

Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia

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Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. Switzerland does not have a standing army, instead opting for a people's militia for its national defense. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world.[1] In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.[2] A referendum in February 2011 rejected stricter gun control.[3]

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So if you want to be gun happy and be in a militia you can go to Switzerland ... and join their "National Guard" ...Note that only those between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted and only those people would have their militia weapons at home.Not everyone.Further:

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Each such individual is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home. Up until October 2007, a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.[4] The ammunition was intended for use while traveling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

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In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today.[5]

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So the ammunition for the guns was sealed and counted before 2007, now there is no ammunition in the house.And further

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When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.[citation needed] In this case of retention, the rifle is sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed; the rifle is then returned to the discharged owner.[citation needed] The rifle is then a semi-automatic or self-loading rifle.

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The sale of ammunition — including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles — is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia. There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there.

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In other words the ammunition is strictly controlled and accounted for.And finally

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In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the USA.[8]

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So fewer guns per household in Switzerland, highly restricted access to ammunition for militia weapons, highly controlled ammunition for post militia weapons.Seems more reasonable than the US to me. Also bogus.Switzerland's Gun Laws Are a Red Herring

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However, gun related crime is remarkably low, with only 24 gun murders in 2009 0.3 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants, compared to 2007 figures in the US of 4.2 per 100,000 people, according to Time Magazine.

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However, attempts to compare the US to Switzerland gloss over the vast differences between the two countries.

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This is also a country with a population smaller than New York City. According to 2011 data from the IMF, Switzerland has a GDP per capita of $83,073, almost double that of the US, or other European countries like the UK or France. The CIA says 6.9 percent of the country lives below the poverty line, compared to 15.1 in the US or 14 in the UK.

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Reduce poverty and you reduce the need for crime.So less households with guns than the US ...
Less poverty than the US ...
Less crime than the US ...Guns are obviously not the solution to crime: less poverty is more likely the solution to crime.Enjoy.

read the quotes from the Founding Fathers.ps -- down to 7.9 woohoo!EnjoyEdited by RAZD, : .

Okay, so comments on proposal #1 (universal FOIDs) were mostly constructive and positive.Let's move on to Proposal #2 (Message 801):: As before we can look at combining this with other proposals: Would address the penalties for not registering the weapons. This would be similar to Switzerland. Also speaks to penalties for not registering. If used in a crime, the last registered gun owner is responsible for the gun being available. Close the straw purchase loophole.There was discussion on the "document of training and competency for each gun" in proposal #1 (FOID card) so we could move it to this one as it makes more sense to be tied to purchasing of a gun.Thus we would have: Note that the "document of training and competency" could be issued by gun dealers if they have a small shooting range (many do) where this could be done.It also seems to me that such registration could include the location where the gun is intended to be kept (home, car, person, cottage, work, etc).Enjoy.

Hi RAZD,Here is an article from Time World by a reporter in Geneva.TIME
World
switzerlandThe Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works
By Helena Bachmann / Geneva Dec. 20, 2012

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Even as the gun-control debate rises again in the U.S. in the aftermath of the horrific school shooting in Newtown, Conn., the gun-loving Swiss are not about to lay down their arms. Guns are ubiquitous in this neutral nation, with sharpshooting considered a fun and wholesome recreational activity for people of all ages.

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We will never change our attitude about the responsible use of weapons by law-abiding citizens, says Hermann Suter, vice president of Pro-Tell, the country’s gun lobby, named after legendary apple shooter William Tell, who used a crossbow to target enemies long before firearms were invented.

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Even though Switzerland has not been involved in an armed conflict since a standoff between Catholics and Protestants in 1847, the Swiss are very serious not only about their right to own weapons but also to carry them around in public. Because of this general acceptance and even pride in gun ownership, nobody bats an eye at the sight of a civilian riding a bus, bike or motorcycle to the shooting range, with a rifle slung across the shoulder.

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But the gun in every closet tradition was challenged in 2001, after a disgruntled citizen opened fire with his army rifle inside a regional parliament, killing 14 and injuring 14 others the only mass shooting in Switzerland’s recent history. The subsequent opposition to widespread gun ownership spearheaded a push for stricter arms legislation. The government and pro-gun groups argued, however, that the country’s existing laws regulating the sale, ownership and licensing of private guns, which includes a ban on carrying concealed weapons, are stringent enough. The law allows citizens or legal residents over the age of 18, who have obtained a permit from the government and who have no criminal record or history of mental illness, to buy up to three weapons from an authorized dealer, with the exception of automatic firearms and selective fire weapons, which are banned. Semiautomatics, which have caused havoc in the U.S., can be legally purchased.

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The authorities made one concession, though: since 2008, all military but not private ammunition must be stored in central arsenals rather than in soldiers’ homes. The debate culminated in a nationwide referendum last year, when 56% of voters rejected the proposal initiated by anti-gun organizations to ban army rifles from homes altogether.

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Read more: How Switzerland Developed a Gun Culture That Works | TIME.comPrivate ammunition kept in the homes.
Since the cal. of the rifles are the same the militia men have ammunition for their rifles, as they have always had.The sealed ammunition had to be accounted for if fired. No other ammunition that the militia men fired through the weapons had to be accounted for. What would reducing poverty do to reduce the senseless shootings that take place in the mass shootings?There is no money involved and the shooter usually dies, or spends the rest of his life in prison however long the inmates let him/her live.So you barking up the wrong tree there.Now as far as reducing crime that is debatable because it seems the more a person has the more he/she wants.Somebody asked Rockfeller how much money was enough and he said 1 more dollar.God Bless,

ICANT observes: ...which is why I suggested that the NRA be given the job.

ICANT writes: Man, where have you been? Don't you know that they changed teams with each other a long time ago? Those Republicans are today's Democrats and those Democrats became Dixiecrats then Republicans. The LBJ election showed the completion of the switch.

Hi RAZD, Why will the supply dry up?There are a lot of people that reload ammunition. That is they make their own bullets. Why would they put them away?And what makes you think they would wear out before our country collapses?How many years can we exist while the Federal government is spending 1.3 trillion dollars more than it has coming in?I think the guns will last a lot longer. Well my body and my wifes body is to be harvested for any parts that can be useful to someone and then used for study. Especially my wifes body. She has three sisters who died from cancer, 2 nieces, and one brother that has died from cancer. Her oldest sister is a 15 year survivor of breast cancer. My wife has never had any form of cancer and there are people who would like to know why. She participates in a Sisters Study presently.When they are done with the bodies they will dispose of them. I am sure my grandchildren will have my weapons by the time the last one of us dies. They have keys to the house.God Bless,

Hi xong, But that job has already been assigned by the ATF to licensed dealers.A database of all weapons purchased from a licensed dealer is kept for 20 years at present.You can find the ATF form at this google search. The pdf. file for form 4473 will give you the information required to buy a gun and the information the dealer has to have before he can put the gun in your posession. Including a NCIS number and the number of the examiner who approved or disapproved the sale.If a sale is denied the licensed dealer has to keep the application for 5 years.God Bless,

Have you considered the interpretation in the Penn and Teller video?The Militia does refer to the State, but its in contrast to the People. To me it would read as:Because a free State is going to have a well regulated Militia, then the People need to be armed too. It assumes the right as a natural one, like the influential English Bill of Rights version, it says not to infringe it.The SCOTUS agrees that the right is an individual one, unconnected to service in the Militia, and also that it doesn't limit it in scope of the People.This works with the other parts of the Constitution that list the powers that the State has over the Militia.Proposal #9 would be toast.