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Author Topic:   Pope Francis allows for Atheism
Taq
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Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 16 of 60 (700833)
06-07-2013 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
06-07-2013 5:23 PM


My take on Pope Francis is just that this is the latest in Rome's "ecumenical" moves to bring every human being under the power of Rome. They have no shame and no integrity, they'll say whatever they think furthers their standing in the world. Pope John Paul included all the pagan religions, now Francis is including atheists. They've either absorbed or turned a blind eye to many a tribal shamanistic religion, they tolerate voodoo for instance. Now atheists. Who's left?

I really don't think this is limited to the RCC. A lot of protestant sects have become more "liberal" in recent times. I really see this as christian sects trying to stay relevant in an increasingly secular society. Christianity no longer holds the reigns like it once did in Western culture.

In some sense, it feels insincere. Atheists and non-christians have been persecuted by the church for centuries, but now that christianity has lost it's political power they want to be all chummy chummy. Part of me wants to give them the finger . . . but, it is actually really nice to see people reaching out to other people because we are all humans and deserve to be recognized as fellow humans. It may be a little late, but at least it happened.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 5:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 11:23 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 60 (700843)
06-07-2013 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taq
06-07-2013 8:15 PM


The Ultimate Power Play
I really don't think this is limited to the RCC. A lot of protestant sects have become more "liberal" in recent times. I really see this as christian sects trying to stay relevant in an increasingly secular society. Christianity no longer holds the reigns like it once did in Western culture.

All very true, there are many apostate "Protestant" churches these days too, and some of us believe that according to Biblical prophecy they will join with the RCC and other religious groups to form the final One World Religion, under the Pope. That's where all this is headed.

In some sense, it feels insincere. Atheists and non-christians have been persecuted by the church for centuries,

I agree it's insincere to the max. But that's just ridiculous to claim that atheists and nonChristias have been "persecuted" for centuries. What "church" are you talking about that persecuted atheists? That's just made-up nonsense. Of course in the Inquisition Muslims and Jews and other nonChristian religions were persecuted, but still it was the Bible believers who were persecuted in the greatest numbers by far. But atheists? For centuries? Where are you getting this?

but now that christianity has lost it's political power they want to be all chummy chummy.

That's what I was saying about the RCC. All they want is to recover the power they lost through the Protestant Reformation, they'll do anything they think might further that aim. There may be some of that feeling in terms of American politics by the so-called "Protestants" too prompting them to join with any others who share their political views.

Part of me wants to give them the finger . . .

Well, God's going to do the equivalent of that in the end, so enjoy your brief moment on God's side.

but, it is actually really nice to see people reaching out to other people because we are all humans and deserve to be recognized as fellow humans. It may be a little late, but at least it happened.

And all I can do is repeat that this feeling is exactly what they are playing for and it can only further their goal of dominating the world. Then they'll take it back. Just wait and see. I don't think it's going to be too long before there will be enough signs of all that taking shape that even you might have to recognize it. But of course maybe you'll applaud that too.

===============================

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 06-07-2013 8:15 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 06-08-2013 11:59 AM Faith has responded
 Message 20 by Coyote, posted 06-08-2013 1:06 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 06-10-2013 6:06 PM Faith has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 695 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 18 of 60 (700862)
06-08-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
06-07-2013 11:23 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
But atheists? For centuries? Where are you getting this?

Ever heard of Galileo?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 11:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Rahvin, posted 06-08-2013 1:06 PM onifre has not yet responded
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-08-2013 3:01 PM onifre has responded

    
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 932 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 19 of 60 (700868)
06-08-2013 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
06-08-2013 11:59 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Oh Oni. That doesn't count! See, the RCC isn't really Christian, to they're irrelevant!

I'd throw in the fact that the Protestant Christian Puritans of colonial America held the penalty for apostasy (ie, atheism or any other non-Christian belief system) as banishment, which was in effect a death sentence.


“The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.” - Francis Bacon

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

“A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity.” – Albert Camus

"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995...

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings


This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member
Posts: 6101
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 20 of 60 (700869)
06-08-2013 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
06-07-2013 11:23 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
That's what I was saying about the RCC. All they want is to recover the power they lost through the Protestant Reformation, they'll do anything they think might further that aim.

More to the point, all western religions want to recover the power they lost through the Enlightenment.

Not going to happen.

Humanity is (very) slowly learning to turn its back on myth and superstition.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 11:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 60 (700874)
06-08-2013 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by onifre
06-08-2013 11:59 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Galileo was a Catholic IIRC.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by onifre, posted 06-08-2013 11:59 AM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by onifre, posted 06-09-2013 12:33 PM Faith has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 695 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 22 of 60 (700916)
06-09-2013 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
06-08-2013 3:01 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Galileo was a Catholic IIRC.

So was I, once... and still claim to be sometimes in certain company. You have to keep appearances at times.

- Oni

Edited by onifre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 06-08-2013 3:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 5:35 PM onifre has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 27651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 60 (700919)
06-09-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by onifre
06-09-2013 12:33 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
What I meant was that Galileo was a SERIOUS Catholic, a believer in the Catholic doctrines, not an atheist. Do you have evidence otherwise:?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by onifre, posted 06-09-2013 12:33 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 06-09-2013 7:25 PM Faith has responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 695 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 24 of 60 (700930)
06-09-2013 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
06-09-2013 5:35 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
You have evidence that a man being persecuted by the Catholic church, who was silenced and made to denounce his own scientific discoveries, claimed he was still a Catholic. Hmm, does that sound coerced enough?

Non-believers, pagans, Muslims, atheist, were always persecuted by the church. Some were raised, like for example Einstein, within a religion - or even Darwin - and never truly said "I don't believe anymore" but it's not to say they believed whole heartedly either. In Darwin's case, his wife, who he loved dearly, was very much religious, and from what I've read it would break her heart had he said he didn't believe anymore. Much as that is true for any number of people like Darwin or Einstein or Galileo who discovered certain truths about our world that the church disagreed with or went against their families faith.

We all have to keep appearances at times.

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 5:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Coyote, posted 06-09-2013 7:37 PM onifre has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 06-09-2013 8:54 PM onifre has acknowledged this reply

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6101
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 25 of 60 (700931)
06-09-2013 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by onifre
06-09-2013 7:25 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Whenever the locals rub blue mud in their navels, I rub blue mud in mine just as solemnly.

Robert A. Heinlein, speaking through the character Lazarus Long in the novel Time Enough for Love, 1973


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 06-09-2013 7:25 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 60 (700941)
06-09-2013 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by onifre
06-09-2013 7:25 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Yeah yeah yeah about Darwin and others, but that's all just your speculation that Galileo belongs in that category. I may yet see if I can track down some quotes, since I thought he said things that truly showed that he believed. Before the persecution.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by onifre, posted 06-09-2013 7:25 PM onifre has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.2


(5)
Message 27 of 60 (701033)
06-10-2013 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
06-07-2013 11:23 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
But that's just ridiculous to claim that atheists and nonChristias have been "persecuted" for centuries.

Really?

When Charlemagne conquered the Visigoths he gave them two choices. They either had to convert to christianity or be executed. Many chose execution. Even in recent American history there were states who passed laws which banned atheists from holding public office.

"During the Inquisition, several of those accused of atheism or blasphemy, or both, were tortured or executed. These included a priest Giulio Cesare Vanini who was strangled and burned in 1619 and a Polish nobleman Kazimierz Łyszczyński who was executed in Warsaw,[3][9][10] as well as Etienne Dolet, a Frenchman executed in 1546. Though heralded as atheist martyrs during the nineteenth century, recent scholars hold that the beliefs espoused by Dolet and Vanini are not atheistic in modern terms"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

You didn't even have to be "full" atheist, just a little. That's all it took to have your life threatened and have your rights taken away.

Are you really unaware of the Church's history?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 06-07-2013 11:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 6:37 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27651
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 60 (701037)
06-10-2013 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taq
06-10-2013 6:06 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
I meant atheists in modern terms, not believers in different religions that were called atheists. Even the early Christians were called atheists by the Romans who fed them to the lions.

But fine, if you want to make an issue of this, I'll concede, it's not worth fighting over a small point.

The persecutions down the centuries however, were aimed mostly at Bible believers, plus some Jews, Muslims, witches and atheists who wren't really atheissts but anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 06-10-2013 6:06 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by onifre, posted 06-10-2013 7:01 PM Faith has responded
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 06-11-2013 11:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
onifre
Member (Idle past 695 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(4)
Message 29 of 60 (701040)
06-10-2013 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-10-2013 6:37 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
plus some Jews

Some? About 6 million...

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 6:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 1:10 AM onifre has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4369
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 30 of 60 (701055)
06-11-2013 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 10:32 AM


It's in the Book.
The Pope simply brought the church in line with what the Bible actually says.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 10:32 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
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