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Author Topic:   Pope Francis allows for Atheism
Faith
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Posts: 27672
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 60 (701058)
06-11-2013 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by onifre
06-10-2013 7:01 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Six million Jews in the Holocaust of the Nazis, yes, but I thought we were talking about the persecutions by strictly religious entities, such as the Inquisition, in which SOME Jews were killed, some Muslims, some witches and so on, along with 50 million Bible believing Christians and some atheists that weren't really atheists. That was MY context, I thought it was yours, but perhaps I misunderstood.

If you want to include the Nazi Holocaust OK, there were some 11 million OTHERS besides the Jews who were also killed in that, and we could go on to Stalin and Rwanda and others, but again I thought the context was religious persecution. Now, if you want to insist that the Nazi holocaust was also religious I can agree to that, another Catholic persecution as Hitler was Catholic, said he modeled it on the Inquisition, the Pope backed him, the Pope helped thousands of Nazi murderers escape afterward and so on. In that case yes the Jews were specifically targeted.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by ramoss, posted 06-11-2013 9:19 AM Faith has responded
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3073
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 32 of 60 (701070)
06-11-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-11-2013 1:10 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
I don't know about you, but when you have family history of being killed because of their religion, 'some' just doesn't cut it. My family got out of Russia because of the pogroms against the Jews. My Great grandfather had 5 of his 6 sisters murdered because of them.

It seems to be rather uncharitable to try to minimize the effects of prejudice , and hand wave the numbers and the effects of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 1:10 AM Faith has responded

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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2754
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 33 of 60 (701073)
06-11-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-07-2013 11:32 AM


Re: Similar, but not the same
Hello Tempe 12ftChicken,
Thanks for the response,

Tempe 12ftChicken writes:

Rather, I find it surprising that the Catholics, those who persecuted others for so long, are somewhat on the forefront of attempting to reduce persecution, even for complete lack of belief.

I think that like many religions there are a great deal of misconceptions regarding the Catholic religion.

I have been a Cathlolic my whole life. But am now what I concider a "ethnic Catholic" Meaning I was born and raised in a devote Catholic home and all I ever knew growing up was that.

Now that I no longer believe in some of the main tennents of the faith I no longer attend mass. But still am interested in what the church has to say.

The word catholic means universal in the greek language. And you are right the church has become more accepting over the years. I mean it was several years ago that Pope John Paul said that it now is acceptable for Catholics to believe in extra terrestrials and the possibilty of life on other planets.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-07-2013 11:32 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2754
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 34 of 60 (701074)
06-11-2013 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-11-2013 1:10 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
. another Catholic persecution as Hitler was Catholic, said he modeled it on the Inquisition,

While it is true Hitler was Catholic until his death, and that the Church never condemned him publicly your suggestion that Hitler commited his "final solution" the extermination of the Jew in the name of Catholcism needs to be supported by evidence and facts.

Where did he say or quote or write that? Source please.

If anything it was Martin Luthers anti semetic writings and background that contributed to Hitlers twisted racism and hatred of the Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

Edited by 1.61803, : changed lead to contributed.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 1:10 AM Faith has responded

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Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 35 of 60 (701075)
06-11-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-10-2013 6:37 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
I meant atheists in modern terms, not believers in different religions that were called atheists.

I clearly said atheists AND non-christians.

The persecutions down the centuries however, were aimed mostly at Bible believers, . . .

I would love to see any evidence you have to back this up.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


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 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-10-2013 6:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 697 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 36 of 60 (701092)
06-11-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-11-2013 1:10 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
but I thought we were talking about the persecutions by strictly religious entities

The effects of the churches prejudice against the jews culminated in hatred for them, with the Holocaust being an example of a horrible outcome due to anti-semitism.

If you believe the teachings of the church had no part in the attempt to eradicate the jews then you are not looking at the facts.

But I too have read the the RCC helped the Nazis locate jews in certain towns/cities.

- Oni


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Faith
Member
Posts: 27672
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 60 (701099)
06-11-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by ramoss
06-11-2013 9:19 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
don't know about you, but when you have family history of being killed because of their religion, 'some' just doesn't cut it. My family got out of Russia because of the pogroms against the Jews. My Great grandfather had 5 of his 6 sisters murdered because of them.

It seems to be rather uncharitable to try to minimize the effects of prejudice , and hand wave the numbers and the effects of it.

I don't know how we got from the question about atheists being persecuted to the Jews, but believe me I'm not minimizing or handwaving away anything about the Jews, it simply hasn't been the topic in my mind, and the fact is that under the Inquisition it was Bible believing Christians who were persecuted in the greatest numbers by far over all the other victims. In other times and places the Jews were the victims, that is true.

But who were the persecutors in Russia, is that clear?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(2)
Message 38 of 60 (701103)
06-11-2013 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by 1.61803
06-11-2013 10:52 AM


Re: Similar, but not the same
1.numbers writes:

While it is true Hitler was Catholic until his death, and that the Church never condemned him publicly your suggestion that Hitler commited his "final solution" the extermination of the Jew in the name of Catholcism needs to be supported by evidence and facts.

See, I have heard Hitler's religion debated many times and it generally swings through three areas (one is a non-religion), Catholicism, Protestantism, and atheism. From much of what I read, it states that Hitler was born a Catholic, but that when he attempted to reduce the Jewish elements in the biblical tale, he was far more toward the Protestant side.

His father being a skeptic probably led somewhat to Hitler's denial of many of the doctrines of the faiths he claimed to espouse. Wiki has a great example of his disbelief with a quote from his confirmation sponser, who said:

Hitler's Confirmation Sponser writes:

he nearly had to "drag the words out of him... almost as though the whole confirmation was repugnant to him"".

It seems far more likely, that while he may have died never officially denying his Catholicism, he left those views well back in his past. However, as to the Catholic Church assisting him and Martin Luther's writings (along with "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" by Mathieu Golovinski) being used as propaganda, those are definitely true statements. It seems that for Hitler, religion was very unimportant when compared to the political gains that he could get by using religion. In fact, in Mein Kampf Hitler specifically states that he does not care who wins the war between Catholics and Protestants (not exactly the sentiment of a card-carrying Catholic).

From Mein Kampf:

Hitler writes:

For the future of the world, however, it does not matter which of the two triumphs over the other, the Catholic or the Protestant. But it does matter whether Aryan humanity survives or perishes.

1.numbers writes:

I have been a Cathlolic my whole life. But am now what I concider a "ethnic Catholic" Meaning I was born and raised in a devote Catholic home and all I ever knew growing up was that.

This is very close to what I had as well. Although, thankfully I had some leaders who also showed me the tenants of other faiths. I took one trip to the Thai Buddhist Temple with the youth leaders for the Thai New Year, I spent a day talking to Greek Orthodox Monks at their monastery, and we would try and do events with the churches of the Protestant sects in the area to create kinship. So, I did get some insight into the other faiths as well.

1.numbers writes:

Now that I no longer believe in some of the main tennents of the faith I no longer attend mass. But still am interested in what the church has to say.

I agree fully with being interested in what the Church has to say. As an ex-Catholic, I am well aware of the atrocities that have been committed by the Church I was raised in. I would like nothing more than for the Catholic Church to continue (such as this statement about atheists) to revise its stances which have become antiquated (I know they were not good ideas to begin with, but I am giving them the benefit of the worldviews at the time by simply calling them antiquated). The amount of people that can be reached and affected by good decisions made within the Vatican is enormous. Imagine the instant push that marriage equality would receive worldwide if the Catholic Church informed its congregations that the Church's stance on that has changed.

I do attend mass, but only three days a year and for my mother. Now that I have outed myself for being athiest, I still told her I would go those three days, just simply that I would not take communion as it would be hypocritical to say Amen to the Eucharistic Minister after they say "Body of Christ". It would be wrong for me to state that I believe that, so no more wafer for me.

1.numbers writes:

I mean it was several years ago that Pope John Paul said that it now is acceptable for Catholics to believe in extra terrestrials and the possibilty of life on other planets.

And Pope John Paul also informed Catholics worldwide that there was no conflict between evolution and religion. Slowly, inexorably it seems that the Church is coming out of the fog they have resided in for 2,000 years. I think this can be explained by three different things. The first is simply that all of humanity's values have changed a lot throughout the years. Secondly, the Church has been caught being blatantly wrong so many times in the past that perhaps there is more need to be an example of not adhering to known false ideas (This excludes ideas that are solely based on faith, such as heaven, a soul, God). Finally, the declining in the numbers of parishoners has probably forced the Church to reexamine the ways it has gone about its mission throughout the years. This reexamination could have the effect of the Church noticing that when it dug in its heels is when it hurt the most people.

Religious Views of Adolf Hitler Wiki

Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : Wiki Source


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by 1.61803, posted 06-11-2013 10:52 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

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Faith
Member
Posts: 27672
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 60 (701104)
06-11-2013 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by 1.61803
06-11-2013 11:12 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
While it is true Hitler was Catholic until his death, and that the Church never condemned him publicly your suggestion that Hitler commited his "final solution" the extermination of the Jew in the name of Catholcism needs to be supported by evidence and facts.

Where did he say or quote or write that? Source please.

If anything it was Martin Luthers anti semetic writings and background that contributed to Hitlers twisted racism and hatred of the Jews. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

Yes, Luther's Lies of the Jews was used by Hitler, but I don't think you can say it was anywhere near the main influence, although the Protestant churches weren't innocent either.

I'm still trying to find the direct quote about the Inquisition but meanwhile here's quite a bit on the Catholic inspiration of the Nazis in general, the first about that general inspiration and the second more directly about the Holocaust:

The following is from the book The Secret History of The Jesuits by Edmond Paris, Section V Chapter 5, "The Gestapo and the Society of Jesus."

164 THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE JESUITS

"I learned much from the Order of the Jesuits", said Hitler... "Until now, there has never been anything more grandiose, on the earth, than the hierarchical organisation of the Catholic Church. I transferred much of this organisation into my own party... I am going to let you in on a secret... I am founding an Order... In my "Burgs" of the Order, we will raise up a youth which will make the world tremble... Hitler then stopped, saying that he couldn't say any more.."(108)

Another highly placed hitlerian, Walter Schellenberg, former chief of the German counter-espionage, completed this confidence from the Fuhrer after the war: "The S.S. organisation had been constituted, by Himmler, according to the principles of the Jesuits' Order. Their regulations and the Spiritual Exercises prescribed by Ignatius of Loyola were the model Himmler tried to copy exactly... The "Reichsfuhrer SS"—Himmler's title as supreme chief of the SS—was to be the equivalent of the Jesuits' "General" and the whole structure of the direction was a close imitation of the Catholic Church's hierarchical order. A mediaeval castle, near Paderborn in Westphalia, and called "Webelsbourg", was restored; it became what could be called a SS monastery".(109)

For their part, the best theological pens were busy demonstrating the similarity between the Catholic and Nazi doctrines. And, for that work, the sons of Loyola were the busiest. As an example, let us see how Michaele Schmaus, Jesuit theologian, presented to the public a series of studies on this subject: "Empire and Church" is a series of writings which should help the building up of the Third Reich as it unites a national-socialist state to Catholic-christianity... The national-socialist movement is the most vigorous and massive protest against the spirit of the 19th and 20th centuries... A compromise between the Catholic faith and liberal thinking is impossible... Nothing is more contrary to Catholicism than democracy... The reawakened meaning of "strict authority" opens up again the way to the real interpretation of ecclesiastical authority... The mistrust of liberty is founded on the Catholic doctrine of original sin... The national-socialist Commandments and those of the Catholic Church have the same aim..."(110)

[Notes to the above]
(108) Hermann Rauschning, former national-socialist chief of the government of Dantzig: "Hitler m'a dit", (Ed. Co-operation, Paris 1939, pp.266, 267, 273 ss).
(109) Walter Schellenberg: "Le Chef du contre-espionnage nazi vous parle" (Julliard, Paris 1957, pp.23-24).
(110) "Begegnungen zwichen Katholischen Christentum und nazional-sozialitischer Weltanchaunung", by Michaele Schmaus, professor at the Faculty of Theology of Munich.
(Aschendorf, Munster 1933).

From the same book:

172 Section V
Chapter 6
The Death Camps and the Anti-Semitic Crusade

To what extent the Catholics were masters of Nazi Germany soon became apparent as also did the severity with which some of the "Papacy's high principles" were applied. The liberals and Jews had plenty of spare time to find out that these principles were far from out-dated, as the most orthodox voices confirmed it.

The right the Church arrogates herself to exterminate slowly or speedily those who are in the way was "put into practice" at Auschwitz, Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, and other death camps. The Gestapo of Himmler, "our Ignatius of Loyola", diligently performed these charitable deeds; civilian and military Germany had to submit "perinde ac cadaver" to this all-powerful organisation.

No need to say that the Vatican washed its hands of these horrors. When giving an audience to Dr Nerin F. Gun, a Swiss journalist who had been deported himself and who wondered why the pope had not intervened, at least by providing some assistance to so many unfortunate people, His Holiness Pius XII had the affrontery to answer: "We knew that, for political reasons, violent persecutions were taking place in Germany, but We were never informed as to the inhuman character of the Nazi repression".(124)

And that at the time when the speaker of Radio Vatican, the R.P. Mistiaen, was declaring that "overwhelming documentary proof" concerning the cruelty of the Nazis had been received".(125)

Without any doubt, the Holy Father was not informed either on what was going on in the "Oustachi" concentration camps, in spite of his own legate's presence in Zagreb.

[Notes to the above]
(124) "Gazette of Lausanne", 15th of November 1945.
(125) R.P. Duclos: "Le Vatican et la seconde guerre mondiale", (Ed. Pedone, Paris 1955.
p.255) Imprimatur 1955.

I've only copied out a couple of pages but the rest of both chapters is also informative.


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 27672
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 60 (701105)
06-11-2013 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-11-2013 4:47 PM


Re: Similar, but not the same
I don't think Hitler was sincere about anything concerning religion, he was more interested in political maneuvering, but from what I just quoted it's clear he made much use of the Catholic Church for his purposes, and they were only too willing to support him.

As for the Roman Church changing, I think they probably will keep changing in the direction you'd like to see them go, liberalizing social policies, but the one thing I'm sure they'll never change is their position on their right to exterminate heretics as they see fit. That's on their books and has been affirmed in the last century. I can find quotes on that from the same book I just quoted.


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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 41 of 60 (701106)
06-11-2013 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
06-11-2013 4:50 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
It appears that the first section is simply laying out the similarities in the heirarchal structures of the two different organizations, and how these structures are more able to control people. When he uses the lines:

Hitler, via Paris writes:

. I transferred much of this organisation into my own party... I am going to let you in on a secret... I am founding an Order...

So, he is not founding a Jesuit order, but rather the Nazi order, founded upon the heirarchal structure employed by the CAtholic Church.

And then:

Paris writes:

Their regulations and the Spiritual Exercises prescribed by Ignatius of Loyola were the model Himmler tried to copy exactly... The "Reichsfuhrer SS"—Himmler's title as supreme chief of the SS—was to be the equivalent of the Jesuits' "General" and the whole structure of the direction was a close imitation of the Catholic Church's hierarchical order.

So, Himmler required similar regulations and took an equivalent title to the leader of the Jesuits. This does not make them Jesuit monks, just individuals who have ttaken some ideas. They saw that the Catholic Church was able to force order and so wanted this exact control for themselves.

Paris writes:

The right the Church arrogates herself to exterminate slowly or speedily those who are in the way was "put into practice" at Auschwitz, Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, and other death camps.

This is simply an emotive line that forces the comparison that the Church and the Nazis are equal. However, it does not state that the Church had an active role in the holocaust. Rather, that the Nazis used the system that had been seen in use by the Catholic Church for centuries (remember, I do not deny the evils of the Inquisition or Crusades either) to control, decimate and rule.

Then, Paris has this statement from Pious XII, which anyone reading can tell is a lie (not by Paris, but by Pious):

Pious XII via Paris writes:

We knew that, for political reasons, violent persecutions were taking place in Germany, but We were never informed as to the inhuman character of the Nazi repression

Really, Pope Pious....you had no idea that Italy's allies were decimating an entire segment of the population in the cruelest ways possible? I don't, nor do I think anyone would have bought that as truth, even at the time. The Catholic Church is definitely guilty of turning a blind eye to the treatment of the Jews (and I am sure they did not try really hard to hide Jews from Nazis.

However, neither did many of the German people, the Polish people or other occupied countries. All of these people were turning a blind eye to the plight of the Jews, not just the Catholics. The Protestants in countries could have done something, or the Catholics in these countries. But these people were propagandized, forced to witness a viewpoint until you began to accept it as true. And the Christian religion (both Catholic and Protestant) makes it too easy to hate Jewish people with the right propaganda. Why? Because it allows vengeance on a group that these views already state killed their savior.

I hold everyone in that time responsible for it, but I put the bulk of the blame squarely where it belongs. Not on Martin Luther's writings, not on the Catholic Church, not on Protestants in Germany, not on The Learned Elders of Zion tract...

...But most of the blame goes where it belongs, on THE NAZI PARTY, the group who used dishonesty, lies, deceit and fear to control a group of people and force them to accept bigoted views that would ultimately cause the deaths of millions. The bulk of blame goes to them and is well deserved.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 4:50 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
Member
Posts: 27672
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 60 (701110)
06-11-2013 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-11-2013 5:19 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
It appears that the first section is simply laying out the similarities in the heirarchal structures of the two different organizations, and how these structures are more able to control people. When he uses the lines:

Hitler, via Paris writes:
. I transferred much of this organisation into my own party... I am going to let you in on a secret... I am founding an Order...

So, he is not founding a Jesuit order, but rather the Nazi order, founded upon the heirarchal structure employed by the CAtholic Church.

Yes, of course, nobody is saying he was creating a religious order along the lines of the Jesuits, he merely found their structure useful for his political purposes. But isn't that in itself rather mind-boggling, that a supposedly Christian organization would be the model for the Nazis because of, as you put it, its ability "to control people?" What does Christianity have to do with controlling people? The Nazis, sure, but Christianity? Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that it would be a religious organization that would be so inspiring to the Nazis?

And then:
Paris writes:
Their regulations and the Spiritual Exercises prescribed by Ignatius of Loyola were the model Himmler tried to copy exactly... The "Reichsfuhrer SS"—Himmler's title as supreme chief of the SS—was to be the equivalent of the Jesuits' "General" and the whole structure of the direction was a close imitation of the Catholic Church's hierarchical order.

So, Himmler required similar regulations and took an equivalent title to the leader of the Jesuits. This does not make them Jesuit monks, just individuals who have ttaken some ideas. They saw that the Catholic Church was able to force order and so wanted this exact control for themselves.

Exactly, Tempe, but you seem to be trying to dismiss this as without implications for a "Church" that is "able to force order" and "exact control."

Paris writes:
The right the Church arrogates herself to exterminate slowly or speedily those who are in the way was "put into practice" at Auschwitz, Dachau, Belsen, Buchenwald, and other death camps.

This is simply an emotive line that forces the comparison that the Church and the Nazis are equal. However, it does not state that the Church had an active role in the holocaust. Rather, that the Nazis used the system that had been seen in use by the Catholic Church for centuries (remember, I do not deny the evils of the Inquisition or Crusades either) to control, decimate and rule.

Yes, this particular quote doesn't directly implicate the RCC in the Holocaust, although that is Paris' contention, it merely implies that its tactics could be rather well applied to that purpose. There is evidence of more direct involvement of the Pope, however, I just have to find the best quotes.

Then, Paris has this statement from Pious XII, which anyone reading can tell is a lie (not by Paris, but by Pious):

Pious XII via Paris writes:
We knew that, for political reasons, violent persecutions were taking place in Germany, but We were never informed as to the inhuman character of the Nazi repression

Yes, of course, that is Paris' point, that the Pope was clearly lying though deeply implicated in all of it.

Really, Pope Pious....you had no idea that Italy's allies were decimating an entire segment of the population in the cruelest ways possible? I don't, nor do I think anyone would have bought that as truth, even at the time. The Catholic Church is definitely guilty of turning a blind eye to the treatment of the Jews (and I am sure they did not try really hard to hide Jews from Nazis.

However, neither did many of the German people, the Polish people or other occupied countries. All of these people were turning a blind eye to the plight of the Jews, not just the Catholics. The Protestants in countries could have done something, or the Catholics in these countries. But these people were propagandized, forced to witness a viewpoint until you began to accept it as true. And the Christian religion (both Catholic and Protestant) makes it too easy to hate Jewish people with the right propaganda. Why? Because it allows vengeance on a group that these views already state killed their savior.

Well, that's both true and false. The Protestants were certainly not innocent in all that, and you are right about the propaganda blitz, but despite Luther's treatise on the Jews there is no Protestant teaching I know of that advocates harming the Jews for their role in the death of Christ, rather the message is always that sinners can seek forgiveness even of the one we crucified. But as I understand it the RCC DID promote vengeance against the Jews as "Christ killers" and this was major fuel for Nazi anti-Semitism, also for all the pogroms down the centuries, even the bullying of Jews in America at times.

One thing that makes this so hard to sort out is the habit people have of accusing "Christians" of various enormities without distinguishing between Catholicism and Protestantism, when it often turns out in reality that in a particular context the term refers only to Catholicism. The early Protestants were the victims of the Inquisition in huge numbers, some 50 million, but this fact tends to get ignored completely in discussions of "Christian" persecutions.

And there are also direct attempts to implicate Protestants and take the heat off the Vatican, but no matter how hard people work to make the Protestants equally guilty with Catholicism the comparison always turns out to be ridiculously trumped up when you make the effort to investigate it.

I hold everyone in that time responsible for it, but I put the bulk of the blame squarely where it belongs. Not on Martin Luther's writings, not on the Catholic Church, not on Protestants in Germany, not on The Learned Elders of Zion tract...

...But most of the blame goes where it belongs, on THE NAZI PARTY, the group who used dishonesty, lies, deceit and fear to control a group of people and force them to accept bigoted views that would ultimately cause the deaths of millions. The bulk of blame goes to them and is well deserved.

While that sounds very nice and politically correct, I think it only serves to mask the big role of the RCC leadership.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-11-2013 5:19 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 06-11-2013 8:08 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 43 of 60 (701116)
06-11-2013 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
06-11-2013 6:52 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
What does Christianity have to do with controlling people?

Seriously? Read up on the Inquisition.

Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that it would be a religious organization that would be so inspiring to the Nazis?

Let's see . . . religions have millions of followers who blindly follow the edicts of the priesthood . . . why would Nazis be inspired by this again? Oh, that's right. THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO!!! Do you think it was a coincidence that the phrase "Gott mit uns" was found on the buttons of SS uniforms?

The early Protestants were the victims of the Inquisition in huge numbers, some 50 million, but this fact tends to get ignored completely in discussions of "Christian" persecutions.

It was christians doing the persecution. I guess atheists, pagans, and muslims were in low numbers at the time, so they turned on themselves.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 6:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-12-2013 2:27 AM Taq has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 6103
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 44 of 60 (701117)
06-11-2013 8:26 PM


With all of these discussions of what religions have done to themselves and to others, and I the only one who feels that nobody with a fundamentalist belief should ever be allowed in any position of power?

(This goes for fundamentalists of all stripes, so as to include Mao, Stalin and other similar misfits as well.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers


Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Taq, posted 06-11-2013 8:29 PM Coyote has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 45 of 60 (701118)
06-11-2013 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Coyote
06-11-2013 8:26 PM


With all of these discussions of what religions have done to themselves and to others, and I the only one who feels that nobody with a fundamentalist belief should ever be allowed in any position of power?

If we don't make mistakes how can we learn from them? Even more, should we restrict democracy based on religious views?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2013 8:26 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Coyote, posted 06-11-2013 8:57 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
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