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Author Topic:   Correlation between Anti-Gun v Anti Death Penalty Views
Jon
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 17 of 113 (734084)
07-25-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
07-20-2014 4:54 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
When a society openly promotes killing others as an acceptable means of solving problems, there should be no one surprised to find ordinary people occasionally killing others to solve their problems.
Violence really does beget violence. On top of this, executions receive little public attention so that citizens are ever aware of, and even comforted by, the death brought by their society's laws without ever having to face the horror of the thing itself.
State-sanctioned killing is not the cause of murder, but it makes it an acceptable choice to some of those whose minds have already gone there. As a detterant it fails.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 07-20-2014 4:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 11:11 AM Jon has replied
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2014 11:32 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 113 (734200)
07-26-2014 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by New Cat's Eye
07-25-2014 11:11 AM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
Your open indiference leaves no evidence lacking for my position.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2014 11:11 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 113 (734252)
07-27-2014 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NoNukes
07-26-2014 11:32 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
I'd like to see you support this proposition because it seems contrary to my experience. Executions in NC are fairly rare, and because of that infrequency, they seem to draw enormous national attention. On top of that, the victims families, who are among those who would be comforted the most, are front and center at executions if that is their choice. By what measure is the publicity too little or insufficient?
If we showed the execution itself, I think public opinion would change rather quickly. Some "bad man" is dying, but behind a closed door; we can feel good about the "justice" we've delivered without ever needing to confront the true horror of what we've done.
Yes, I agree that the death penalty fails as a deterrent, but do you really believe people are motivated to kill more because there is capital punishment? Or are you saying something else? What support is there for this proposition?
I'm saying capital punishment fosters a "wild west" mentality where people out for blood can feel justified in going after it.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2014 11:32 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2014 5:26 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 113 (734416)
07-28-2014 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
07-27-2014 5:26 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
Executions used to be public.
And yet now they are not.
There seems to be a large segment of the population who would be perfectly okay with getting rid of the eight amendment.
And yet they never have to watch the killing.
That's what I thought. Now can you back up your feelings with something more substantive?
Not tonight.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2014 5:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2014 11:28 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 48 of 113 (734454)
07-29-2014 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
07-28-2014 11:28 PM


Re: The Death Penalty as a Deterrent
If you have a point make it. My point is that being public in the past did not result in people wanting to get rid of the death penalty here. Hangings and Guillotinings seem to make great spectacles and picnic opportunities.
Why reference time periods in which public attitudes were very different than they are today? Based on the information in this article ("Americans Favor The Death Penalty, But Few Want The Executed To Suffer"), it is hard to imagine a public hanging or guillotining attracting much positive attention.
I Ask Jon if he has some kind of substantive argument other than his feelings
Not tonight
Exactly.
Poor form.
Nevertheless, here is some information linking the use of the death penalty to increased murder (I also used to have a book, full of good stuff, but I will have to settle with these couple of things for now.):
1. Message 7
2.
quote:
"Death Penalty An Ineffective Deterrent" in The Tech:
Texas, Florida, and Louisiana are among the leaders nationwide in executions -- and lead the nation in murders per 100,000 people. Mississippi is under investigation for dozens of jail house lynchings the past few years. If you look through the list in the Uniform Crime Report of cities with populations over 10 thousand, you rarely see a city in Mississippi or Texas without at least one murder. The large majority of cities in Massachusetts have no murders.
This suggests that the death penalty promotes murder instead of deterring it. Death penalty opponents often cite a study of New York City indicating that on the average two more murders occurred during the month following an execution there than otherwise. The murder rate in Canada dropped after the death penalty was abolished there.
Now, you can say that correlation does not prove causation, or even claim that areas using the death penalty do so out of necessity on account of their high murder rates.
One thing is certain: there is definitely a correlation between the "wild west" mentality and the use of capital punishment.
What I suppose is not entirely certain is whether capital punishment creates that "wild west" mentality, or whether it is a "wild west" mentality that is responsible for capital punishment's continued employment and popularity.
But does it really matter? Either way you write the story, the continued use of capital punishment is most definitely a marker of the illness of the society that employs it (whether that illness is a cause or a reaction). Any society would benefit from the elimination of the death penalty for no other reason than as a sign to the world that it is not sick, or at least not as sick as places such as Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, or the U.S.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : Clarity... and other important stuff.
Edited by Jon, : Even more clarity...

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 07-28-2014 11:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Phat, posted 07-29-2014 11:45 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 07-30-2014 12:56 PM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 113 (734576)
07-31-2014 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
07-30-2014 4:33 PM


For laws to be legitimate, they have to reflect the views and morality of the society they are intended to control.
What is legitimacy weighed against the good, the just, and the right?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Tangle, posted 07-30-2014 4:33 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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