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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 271 of 305 (771074)
10-19-2015 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by ringo
10-19-2015 1:02 PM


Re: Making saints up
Ringo writes:

Millions of people vote for conservatives. That has much more serious consequences and I take it much more seriously.

I take global warming and ISIS more seriously, but that's not to say that I can't also have concerns for other things. The Catholic church's often bad actions and ideas influence the lives of billions of people and need to be discussed in less deferential terms than seems to be happening at the moment.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 10-19-2015 1:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 5:46 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 10-20-2015 11:41 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 305 (771082)
10-19-2015 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Tangle
10-19-2015 1:34 PM


Re: Making saints up
The Catholic church's often bad actions and ideas influence the lives of billions of people and need to be discussed in less deferential terms than seems to be happening at the moment.

I agree but of course I agree from the point of view of a Protestant and you think we're as crazy as the RCC, which is frustrating though understandable. It was the Protestant Reformers, though, who finally saw through them, their completely nonChristian doctrines and practices, which were taken mostly from the Roman Empire's pagan religions and mixed with a few Christian concepts. Others had reacted against all this but they'd been oppressed and murdered by the RCC. The great crime according to the RCC was reading the Bible in those days, because it so clearly showed how their religion had nothing to do with Christinity. Their world political ambitions were shown already in their lording it over kings and emperors in the Middle Ages, which is far from Christ's kingdom which is "not of this world." They haven't lost that ambition, though the Reformation set them back pretty severely.

In more recent times it hasn't always been Protestants who have exposed the Vatican's real nature, though you will find that Protestant websites often present studies that originate with others. There have been Catholics as well who have exposed much of it. Malachi Martin is one.

But here's a nonChristian expose you might be interested in. Or not. He's Jewish and he's written many books exposing the RCC's role in world politics.

Vatican manipulation of the Vietnam War

The Roman Church is a much bigger influence in the world than most of us suspect.

ABE: I think I probably answered the wrong post here. I had the one --Message 267 --in mind where you mention papal interference in the US:

Pope Francis electrifies Congress with speech laying out bold vision for US

What business does the Pope have telling us anything? Well, RCC doctrine does claim the Pope is the rightful ruler of the world. I'm still looking for the most relevant quote on that. I think it must have come from Gregory VII, or Hildebrand, who seems to have been the Pope who most extended the political power of the Popes.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2015 1:34 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2015 3:13 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 273 of 305 (771093)
10-20-2015 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Blue Jay
10-19-2015 1:05 PM


Re: Making saints up
I read up a bit on the miracle of the gulls. There's a monument to that supposed miracle somewhere -- reading too fast, missed it but probably Salt Lake City?

I do believe God does occasionally give miracles, but since I think Mormon doctrine is false I can't believe He favored the Mormons with a miracle. He might have I suppose, out of sheer mercy nevertheless, but no, I take that back: I don't think He would do that because it would give credence to the false doctrine, and too many are confused by all the weird false versions of Christianity these days. For the same reason He isn't giving the RCC any miracles either, it's all bogus or demonic.

The web discussions try to debunk the miracle idea. But I think there's a simple explanation. Oddly enough there are seagulls out here in the desert west, even around Las Vegas and Reno, and apparently lots of them around the Salt Lake, according to the websites I looked at. So the appearance of gulls wouldn't have been miraculous in itself. Perhaps they were more numerous that year.

Also there is a phenomenon out here known as the periodic visit of the "Mormon crickets" even here in Nevada. From what I just read they are actually katydids. Anyway they show up in huge numbers from time to time years apart. Best guess is they came in huge numbers in 1848 and the native gulls had at them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Blue Jay, posted 10-19-2015 1:05 PM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Blue Jay, posted 10-20-2015 10:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 274 of 305 (771101)
10-20-2015 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
10-19-2015 5:46 PM


Re: Making saints up
Faith writes:

I agree but of course I agree from the point of view of a Protestant and you think we're as crazy as the RCC,

Well no, I don't lump all religious beliefs together and call them equally crazy. Some are decidedly less crazy than others. Your kind of Protestantism is actually crazier than the RCC - the RCC at least have the sense not to insist on stuff being correct that is demonstrably and factually wrong and/or have bigotted and prejudicial views which would do great harm to our society if we let you. Other forms of Protestantism is almost benign, Quakers seem quite sane and Anglicanism might yet reform itself in a sensible fashion.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 10-19-2015 5:46 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 254 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 275 of 305 (771113)
10-20-2015 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Faith
10-20-2015 1:24 AM


Miracle of the Gulls
Hi, Faith.

I think there's an even simpler explanation. 1848 was the Mormons' first year in Utah (they had arrived in the previous autumn), so they had no experience with the local ecology, and didn't know what to expect when they planted their first crops.

The bottom line to me is that at some point, somebody pointed out how gulls eat crickets, and then the story escalated over a couple of decades until it took on mythological proportions.

I believe this is the reason why the miracles of the past seem so much more miraculous than alleged modern-day miracles. God used to throw fireballs from the sky on cue, instantly vanquish diseases with a word or a touch, and turn water into wine before the end of the party. Anymore, it seems like all God does is stealthily make people gradually recover from diseases while under the care of vigilant medical professionals, let them walk away from car accidents with just a few bruises and scrapes, or arrange for a friend to remember to pay back some money owed around the time when their creditor is in a minor budget crisis.

The general quality of miracles seems to bear an inverse relationship with the passage of time. Furthermore, the quality of a specific miracle also seems to bear the same inverse relationship with the passage of time, just like "fish stories." I feel like these two things are probably related.


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Faith, posted 10-20-2015 1:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 276 of 305 (771116)
10-20-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Tangle
10-19-2015 1:34 PM


Re: Making saints up
Tangle writes:

The Catholic church's often bad actions and ideas influence the lives of billions of people and need to be discussed in less deferential terms than seems to be happening at the moment.


I'm not suggesting that you should be "deferential", just less rabid.

You're stuck in the past, like Faith. Today's Catholic Church is barely on the radar of dangerous religious groups.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2015 1:34 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2015 12:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 277 of 305 (771118)
10-20-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by ringo
10-20-2015 11:41 AM


Re: Making saints up
ringo writes:

Today's Catholic Church is barely on the radar of dangerous religious groups.

Do religions need to be flying planes into tall buildings these days to merit discussion and condemnation?

Global child rape. Institutional cover-up. Homophobia. Discrimination against women. Increasing the spread of HIV in Africa by campaigning against condom use.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ringo, posted 10-20-2015 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 10-20-2015 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 278 of 305 (771120)
10-20-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Tangle
10-20-2015 12:17 PM


Re: Making saints up
Tangle writes:

Global child rape. Institutional cover-up. Homophobia. Discrimination against women. Increasing the spread of HIV in Africa by campaigning against condom use.....


You're losing the plot. We've been talking about your statement in Message 264:
quote:
And these puddled men will emerge shortly and declare on how they think families should behave and we're supposed to take them seriously?

My point is that no, we shouldn't take seriously their ideas on how families should behave. If African families take them seriously and spread HIV as a result, that's a different issue. "We" are not Africans. "We" can not solve African problems by blathering on the Internet.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2015 12:17 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2015 5:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 279 of 305 (771125)
10-20-2015 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
10-20-2015 12:47 PM


Re: Making saints up
ringo writes:


My point is that no, we shouldn't take seriously their ideas on how families should behave.

Well you're not going to get me to disagree with that. That's kindof my point

If African families take them seriously and spread HIV as a result, that's a different issue. "We" are not Africans. "We" can not solve African problems by blathering

Right, Africa's not your problem. Best to shut up and just hope it goes away. Not happening here, best not talk about it. However, child rape and cover up is on your doorstep; not interested in that either? Not a problem just invite the boss over anyway.

Pope Francis became the first pontiff to address the United States Congress on Thursday. [...] After the speech, members of Congress from both sides of the aisle lauded the pope's speech, with many praising his message of compassion for society's most vulnerable.

Now that's not to say that this isn't a reforming pope with his heart in the right place - he actually seems like a decent guy trying to do some decent things. But he's still proclaiming saints in a mediaeval manner and he's not going to overturn anything important just yet.

And, by the way, this thread is about Catholics making it up - and they just made up two more saints and published it to the world in order to publicise their conclave. It's news and it's barking mad.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 10-20-2015 12:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 10-21-2015 11:53 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 280 of 305 (771135)
10-21-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Tangle
10-20-2015 5:42 PM


Re: Making saints up
Tangle writes:

Right, Africa's not your problem. Best to shut up and just hope it goes away.


No. Best to stop whining about it on the Internet and do something tangible.

Tangle writes:

However, child rape and cover up is on your doorstep; not interested in that either?


There probably are plumbers who rape children - but it isn't something that they learn in plumbing school and it isn't something that the plumbers' union recommends. It makes no sense to blame plumbing for everything the plumbers do.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Tangle, posted 10-20-2015 5:42 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2015 12:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 281 of 305 (771141)
10-21-2015 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by ringo
10-21-2015 11:53 AM


Re: Making saints up
ringo writes:

No. Best to stop whining about it on the Internet and do something tangible.

Need I remind you that 'whining' is the entire and total purpose of this site. If you don't like people talking about the rights and wrongs of religion, you're in the wrong place.

There probably are plumbers who rape children

Yeh, for sure. However, this is a site where we talk about religion not plumbing. And it's proven to be the case that a large number of Catholic clerics of all ranks have systematically raped children and that the organisation that feels it is pious enough to tell the world how to behave has covered it up. The world plumbers union is not putting itself forward as a model of global moral leadership and so far has not been found guilty of global scale criminal activity. Maybe there's no sensible comparison between them?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 10-21-2015 11:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 10-21-2015 12:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 282 of 305 (771146)
10-21-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Tangle
10-21-2015 12:35 PM


Re: Making saints up
Tangle writes:

Need I remind you that 'whining' is the entire and total purpose of this site.


Wrong again. Whining is only half of the purpose of this site. The other half is telling whiners how silly they're being, whether they're whining about science being wrong or something else.

Tangle writes:

And it's proven to be the case that a large number of Catholic clerics of all ranks have systematically raped children and that the organisation that feels it is pious enough to tell the world how to behave has covered it up.


You could probably make your case better without the hyperbole.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2015 12:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2015 1:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 283 of 305 (771157)
10-21-2015 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by ringo
10-21-2015 12:50 PM


Re: Making saints up
^^^ righto, you've got to point of arguing for the sake of it and deliberately missing the point faster than usual, so I'll leave it there for the moment.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by ringo, posted 10-21-2015 12:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by ringo, posted 10-22-2015 12:09 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 284 of 305 (771210)
10-22-2015 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Tangle
10-21-2015 1:37 PM


Re: Making saints up
To recap: a few bad apples in the Catholic Church does not translate into a systemic problem in the Catholic Church.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Tangle, posted 10-21-2015 1:37 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 285 of 305 (771995)
11-02-2015 2:02 PM


Vatican Finances
Woops

The Vatican says it has arrested two people, a high-ranking priest and a former employee, on suspicion of leaking confidential documents.
They were members of a commission set up by Pope Francis to help reform Church finances.
Officials believe they passed records of its discussions to journalists investigating Vatican corruption.
The documents form the basis of two new books on the controversial state of the Vatican's finances.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34703293

It looks like a little more of the financial corruption at the heart of the Vatican is going to scupper pope F's attempt to spin the outcome of the Family synod.

I do feel sorry for this chap - he seems a genuinely a decent bloke.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
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