Another one that hurts

I'm not following this - sorry. Mod agrees - as he has to - that people living in the UK must obey UK law. But I think he believes that this is not a significant point. I do. I don't say that and I don't think that. Well I read it as nothing more needs to be done. Which he says and implies repeatedly. As do I. But I disagree with anyone who plays down the threat. Which he repeatedly does. I have never suggested any extreme stance or response. Sadly he has said just that. However, I don't for a moment that he means it that way, it's just that he's come across as an apologist for the actions of extremists and dug a big hole for himself. I don't think he meant too, he just got carried away with a dumb argument full of factual errors and fallacies in an attempt to say that 'they' are just like 'us'. Which 'they' are not. I fail to see what could be more extreme that attacking a major western city and putting all of Europe on high alert. Full scale war on home territory apart. I don't disagree at all. But I suspect what you mean by an extreme stance is invading a country. Most of what I'm referring to is about solving the problems on our home ground by education and reform.

Um. I know what you're trying to say, but in the context of our society, men with assault weapons simultaneously targeting cafes, football stadia and music halls, killing 130 people and hospitalising more, in an iconic Western capital city IS extreme. We must not start downplaying that by comparing it to thousands or even tens of thousands of deaths elsewhere. That looks like callous complacency - even if it's not meant that way. Our reality of safety was shattered. I don't think it is. I'm fully aware of the differences but reject the comparison. Again, we mustn't try to underplay the importance of this by comparing it to much worse things. It's a simple fact of real life that a tragedy close to home has far more impact than one far away. That can't be wished away, it's the human conditional response to danger, risk and our ability to empathise. It's this spurious equalising argument I object to.Of course the world would be a better place if wealth, freedom opportunity and democracy was everywhere. 'We' have made a good stab at improving 'our' lives through it and 'they' are trying to take it from us. That's 'their' stated mission through holy jihad.

I have said several times that a body count argument fails - it's simplistic and emotive. It wouldn't matter if the body count was equal, we'd still be more concerned with deaths in our own countries than elsewhere. If it was otherwise, we'd have spent as much on curing malaria as we have on cancer.It does not help the man whose leg has been amputated to hear that the man in the next bed lost both his legs. We suffer our own pain.In the case of terrorism, it's not about body count at all - except that there has to be some death and the more the better. The purpose is to cause fear and reduce the freedoms of your enemy. A bombing in Paris or London or New York has a disproportional effect. You may wish it was different, but it isn't and it will never be.Our enemies have a death cult, they hold life cheap. They have no fear of killing other Muslims as that puts them into heaven. They kill themselves because they get into heaven. Our society worships life and goes to extraordinary lengths to prolong it. Please note - I'm not extending this analysis beyond the fanatics, 'ordinary' Muslims are as fond of life as the rest of us, and it's a tragedy when they too are killed in the war. Of course not. You miss the point. Ideas and values are not equal. Some are better, far better than others. In this case, the West's ideas about freedom, democracy and fraternity are far better than theocracy, dogma and terror. Again. I have never said, nor do I think that, as a general goal, we shouldn't treat people equally. In fact the opposite. I have repeatedly said that UK Muslims should be treated exactly the same as any other UK citizen.

What sanctimonious bollocks.It's a simple matter of fact that we care more about our family, friends and nationals (in that order) than about distant people we don't know. We also care more about our way of life that distant people's way of life. That's non-controversial. That's not that we don't care at all, it's that we don't care as much. If we cared the same for an starving child in Botswana we'd treat her the same as our own daughter - we can't and we don't. As is evidenced by you safely posting on an internet forum instead of working for the Red Cross in a war zone. Yes they do. That's why they blow themselves and others of the same faith up. Again, I'm not referring to all Muslims. Now your just being a dick.

Sorry Dronestar, I'll not responding to this self-righteous posturing.

Nice. I was rather hoping that sort of crude, bullshit attempt to close down a conversation belonged in the past. But it seems not.

Try to answer this question honestly.Would the death of your child matter to you more than the death of a child in the newspaper that you did not know.

There is no implication.Suicide bombers, by definition, value their lives less than you or I do.Where are you having the difficulty here?

It's not a mistake, it's an honest answer. We have different feelings for those who are closer to us than those that are more distant - physically and emotionally. As I said, it's not that we don't care about others, it's just that we care less. When we become aware of them - like we did about the baby washed up on the beach - we care more. Caring for people we don't know seems to be rather abstract and impermanent. When there's an atrocity committed by people of the same race and religion as the baby, we suddenly forget our caring. It's not nice, but it's what we are. Absolutely. Because it's good propaganda - but then you knew that. I'm afraid what happens in the region is beyond my powers of comprehension. As a general statement, it seems true that security must come before everything else. How that is achieved I really don't know.

Modulous, part of my problem with discussing this stuff with you is that you have an enormously patronising and supercilious attitude, which you combine with a nasty accusative, academic and combative style.As I'm often accused of having some of those attributes, we're not going to make any progress going head-to-head over imaginary differences. For what it's worth, I doubt there's any real material difference between our positions.I do however, have a real life and probably won't be able to reply here for at least 48 hours. You don't need to read anything further into that.

I'm sure most of us do in that abstract way. It matters to us in the moment. We then go and get a cup of tea and it's forgotten in a day, week month until the next earthquake, train crash, bombing. There's a reason a coach crash in Mexico is only reported here if it contains more than 10 UK citizens. We can't concern ourselves with every tragic death that occurs in the world, we're just not capable of it. Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

You're just repeating a question I've already said that I don't understand. If you'd like me to answer it, you're going to have to explain it. Even better, why not just make your point?

It's rather hard to successfully argue that someone who kills himself with the stated aim of arriving in heaven early, hold life more dearly than death.Though I'm sure there are those who will try anyway. Black is, after-all, just a darker shade of white.

I'd love to but I still have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Correct. And for it to happen there are those amongst the enemy that are, in fact, 'pure evil'. The majority, of course, are not. And I've made a point of saying that repeatedly. Well it would be if that was what I am saying. But as it isn't .....? Well that's getting closer, but of course that too is exagerated. There seems to be a core group of many thousands of 'pure evil' with enough deluded suicide recruits to create a fascist, mediaeval state capable of doing the most hideous things to their fellow Muslims - like beheading the curator of a museum and hanging his headless body off a lampost just in case others missed the message. Those that do these things, may hold their own life dear like the rest of us, but not so much others. Particularly the infadel. Of course they do. Good. Not good. Those that do these wicked things are dehumanised and they should be denounced for it. What shouldn't be done is to tar all Muslims with the same brush. I disagree. I think they do the things they do for the reasons 'evil' people have always done evil things at a group level; power and dogma. They're opportunists filling a vacuum, this is not a people's revolution - it's the exact opposite, it's an attempt to create a totalitarian, murderous theocracy which they want to spread throughout the Middle East and onwards and so far they're doing quite well at it.We're in severe danger of downplaying and looking the other way on that.