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Author Topic:   The Science in Creationism
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 237 of 986 (783468)
05-05-2016 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
05-05-2016 1:45 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Intricacy proves design,
As already shown, just because humans are able to make something in no way indicates that an intelligence is always required to make it. There is absolutely no reason why natural processes can't produce intricate designs.

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 Message 235 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 1:50 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 241 of 986 (783472)
05-05-2016 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
05-05-2016 1:50 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
So you say, but you have no evidence that this is the case.
I do have the evidence. It is the matching phylogenies of morphology and DNA sequences. You still can't address it.

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 Message 239 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 1:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 1:55 PM Taq has replied
 Message 258 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 8:31 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 249 of 986 (783484)
05-05-2016 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Faith
05-05-2016 1:55 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
No I can't address it but I can say that it is nevertheless indirect evidence and not direct.
By what definition?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 483 of 986 (783879)
05-09-2016 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 11:51 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
But you have provided no evidence that your position is correct.
You are shifting the burden of proof. It is up to you to provide evidence for your claims.
You haven't presented any evidence that intricate design is produced by a supernatural deity, so your claims are dismissed.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(1)
Message 484 of 986 (783880)
05-09-2016 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
05-06-2016 6:27 AM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Do you mean the supposed evolution from the reptilian to the mammalian ear? That was discussed on a thread a while back, with illustrations.
No, I mean the evolution of the mammalian middle ear. We have the functional intermediate stages which Behe claims shouldn't be there. They are there. We have the step by step evolution of the irreducibly complex middle ear.
Behe argues that all three bones have to be in the middle ear, or no functional middle ear. The reptile-mammal transitional fossils disprove this.
You keep saying that but not proving that it's really so. Shouldn't we expect morphology to match DNA sequences?
Not at all. Most DNA in a genome has nothing to do with morphology. Even then, you could have drastically different sequence for DNA that does result in morphology and still have the same morphology. For example, you could completely change codon usage, or mix and match DNA sequences from different species.
In fact, that's exactly what humans do. We take DNA from very distantly related organisms and mix them together. For example, there are fish that fluoresce due to carrying a jellyfish gene that humans put there. So why couldn't a deity do the same thing?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(3)
Message 485 of 986 (783882)
05-09-2016 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by herebedragons
05-06-2016 1:00 PM


Re: but reality does not look like what we know is designed.
I would point out though that this argument is against a designer with "human-like" qualities or that would design things like humans do, not against any designer. I don't even think it disqualifies the potential designer as incompetent. Sure we can look at a lot of "design flaws" in living things, but it may be that we just don't see the purpose for a particular design - that is, it doesn't fit our human qualifications as a "good" design.
What your argument does really well is it shows that using human designed objects and recognizing that they are actually designed does nothing to address design in nature. They do not have the same qualities at all.
It goes way beyond that. There was a discussion on phylogenetics a few months ago where it discussed the calculations involved. There is an equation you use to figure out how many trees are possible given the number of characteristics you are sorting. As it turns out, for 30 characteristics there is an astonishing 10^38 possible trees.
"So, how well do phylogenetic trees from morphological studies match the trees made from independent molecular studies? There are over 1038 different possible ways to arrange the 30 major taxa represented in Figure 1 into a phylogenetic tree (see Table 1.3.1; Felsenstein 1982; Li 1997, p. 102). In spite of these odds, the relationships given in Figure 1, as determined from morphological characters, are completely congruent with the relationships determined independently from cytochrome c molecular studies (for consensus phylogenies from pre-molecular studies see Carter 1954, Figure 1, p. 13; Dodson 1960, Figures 43, p. 125, and Figure 50, p. 150; Osborn 1918, Figure 42, p. 161; Haeckel 1898, p. 55; Gregory 1951, Fig. opposite title page; for phylogenies from the early cytochrome c studies see McLaughlin and Dayhoff 1973; Dickerson and Timkovich 1975, pp. 438-439). "
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1
So out of the 1x10^38 possible combinations of DNA bases for cytochrome c that a designer could have chosen (reminding you again that cytochrome c has nothing to do with morphology), the designer just happened to pick the 1 combination of similarities and differences that evolution would produce? That doesn't add up.
No designer would spend the massive amounts of extra effort and time just to make designs fall into the pattern that evolution would produce when there is zero reason to do so with respect to function. It makes no sense.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


(2)
Message 486 of 986 (783883)
05-09-2016 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Genomicus
05-06-2016 2:31 PM


Re: but reality does not look like what we know is designed.
Genomicus writes:
I'm not sure I find this a compelling argument against a teleological view of biotic reality. Regarding, for instance, your automobile example: while it is true that, say, radial tires replaced bias ply tires -- if one looked at all cars during this transition from bias ply tires --> radial tires, one would find that some cars retained the older tires while newer cars had radial tires. In other words, there'd be a nested hierarchy of cars, wherein some had the new tires and others retained the older tires. It was only after this novel "trait" was fixed in the entire car "population" that (obviously) all cars had this newer innovation. In many ways, then, the human design process mimics the evolutionary "descent with modification" process; after all, the preferences of the marketplace often act as a selective force.
As I am sure you are aware, it is possible to put any set of objects into a nested hierarchy based on the distribution of a single characteristic. The difficulty comes in seeing if the tree holds up for all characteristics, or at least a statistically significant number of them. Does the tree for radial tires also match the tree for number of cylinders or type of drive system (2x4 v. 4x4)? Does the distribution of FM radios follow the distribution of fuel injection?

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