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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Faith
Member
Posts: 25609
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 886 of 1352 (809057)
05-16-2017 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 885 by ICANT
05-16-2017 12:01 AM


Re: The Flood Explains ... most things geological
ICANT I don't care about who thought what when. What I argue here is my own understanding of what the Flood would have done based on my own observations.; I don't care who came up with what theory.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by ICANT, posted 05-16-2017 12:01 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 906 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2017 12:14 AM Faith has responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 458
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 887 of 1352 (809065)
05-16-2017 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 876 by JonF
05-11-2017 12:51 PM


Re: Six "Flood" Arguments Creationists Can't Answer
Here is a response to Chadwick's PRECAMBRIAN POLLEN IN THE GRAND CANYON — A REEXAMINATION. http://creation.com/...rand-canyon-overturns-plant-evolution.

Conclusion
The weight of evidence favours the conclusion that fossil pollen is contained in ‘Precambrian’ shale. This is contrary to expectations based on the accepted geological column.

More Precambrian Pollen
Fossils of spores and pollen have been found in the Precambrian Roraima formation, as reported in a 1966 article in the prestigious journal Nature. That means they are at least 1,300 million, or 1.3 billion years ‘out of date’. http://creation.com/pollen-paradox


This message is a reply to:
 Message 876 by JonF, posted 05-11-2017 12:51 PM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 888 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2017 7:11 AM CRR has responded
 Message 891 by edge, posted 05-16-2017 9:59 AM CRR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4891
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 888 of 1352 (809070)
05-16-2017 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 887 by CRR
05-16-2017 6:14 AM


Re: Six "Flood" Arguments Creationists Can't Answer
CRR - I'm not reading anything from a creation 'science' source. Can you point to properly published source?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 6:14 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 889 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 8:20 AM Tangle has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 458
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 889 of 1352 (809075)
05-16-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 888 by Tangle
05-16-2017 7:11 AM


Re: Six "Flood" Arguments Creationists Can't Answer
Tangle: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien, Je suis ŕ l'esprit fermé.

Pardon if my french is not perfect but I'm sure you get my drift.

Edited by CRR, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2017 7:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by Tangle, posted 05-16-2017 8:53 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4891
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 890 of 1352 (809081)
05-16-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by CRR
05-16-2017 8:20 AM


Re: Six "Flood" Arguments Creationists Can't Answer
CRR - my mind is entirely open, but it's been educated too. Your links are to a discredited organisation that publishes an unreviewed pile of garbage on a website.

This is a science forum, if there's useful information to be discussed it needs to come from a credible scientific source.

It's also a forum rule that we discuss stuff here in our own words referring to proper references when we have to.

Why not have a go at that?

I refer you to the rest of my tag
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 8:20 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3904
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 891 of 1352 (809088)
05-16-2017 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 887 by CRR
05-16-2017 6:14 AM


Re: Six "Flood" Arguments Creationists Can't Answer
Conclusion
The weight of evidence favours the conclusion that fossil pollen is contained in ‘Precambrian’ shale. This is contrary to expectations based on the accepted geological column.

Only if you ignore the facts that the pollen grains are found on fractures in the rock and do not exhibit darkening of color with age as is normal for older pollen. They also show no compression that should happen with burial under miles (as averred by Faith) of sediments.

More Precambrian Pollen
Fossils of spores and pollen have been found in the Precambrian Roraima formation, as reported in a 1966 article in the prestigious journal Nature. That means they are at least 1,300 million, or 1.3 billion years ‘out of date’. http://creation.com/pollen-paradox

The first thing I noticed about this occurrence is that nothing has been published since the 1960's when it was first announced.

Again, there is no flattening of the pollen grains as would be expected of such a strongly metamorphosed rock and it is thought that pollen grains would not even survive such a high temperature metamorphism.

Once again, one researcher mentions that ultrasonic cleaning of a sample removed the pollen from the rock suggesting that the grains were confined to fractures in the rock.

All the data suggest contamination by percolating meteoric water carrying pollen into a groundwater system.

Here is a kind of technical article on the subject:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Roraima_pollen_paradox


This message is a reply to:
 Message 887 by CRR, posted 05-16-2017 6:14 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 899 by JonF, posted 05-16-2017 2:00 PM edge has not yet responded
 Message 901 by CRR, posted 05-17-2017 2:41 AM edge has responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5905
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 892 of 1352 (809091)
05-16-2017 10:14 AM


Is Davidjay lying or will he finally answer?
In Message 5 Davidjay claims:

quote:
I always engage in discussions and always prove my points. But evolutionists want me to agree with their false science and false givens.

...

In an open debate, BOTH sides are required to answer questions...


This is good to know, because then Davidjay will obviously answer the question I have been prodding him with for a month or so. As posted in Message 3 of this thread (and in a previous thread):

Coyote writes:

My own archaeological research disproves the global flood ca. 4500 years ago. Research by my colleagues disproves it thousands of times over.

In my research I have continuity of human cultures from before to after the date of the flood, and most importantly I have mitochondrial DNA of the same type extending from before to after that date. If there was such a flood, the earlier mtDNA haplotype would be eliminated, to be replaced by a type from the Middle East.

A few other little details: there is no evidence of the erosional or depositional features that would necessarily associate with such a flood in the area I study.

But if you truly want to see the features left by flood erosion, google "channeled scablands" and look at the images. Some notable examples are from central and eastern Washington:

The nice thing about the flood evidence in Washington is that we can date the events and we know the cause! They occurred between 18,000 and 13,000 years ago, and resulted from formation and breakage of ice dams upstream.

Oh, and this evidence is about three or four times older than the purported global flood. How is it that we see the evidence of those older floods but not evidence of a much larger and much more recent flood?

(Answer: it didn't happen.)

So, don't be claiming that the flood is TRVE history. It is a belief, not a fact.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 893 of 1352 (809100)
05-16-2017 10:36 AM


I always answer, 'Just ask Jesus'
And do see my new signature for further information against evolution and evolutionaries and their fear and flight modus operandi....

Evolutyionists are used to forcing their theory on students and scientists. They are not used to answering any questions on this theory, because it is their religion. And as a religion it must be accepted by faith.... It is not science and it is not logical or rational and has no facts behind it. Evolution is a con and a LIE. A big one, but because it is forced on the gullible and on students, they must accept it. This their modus operandi...and so when faced with sane biological opposition, they can only be subjective rather than objective.

Replies to this message:
 Message 894 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2017 10:38 AM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 895 by edge, posted 05-16-2017 11:07 AM Davidjay has responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5905
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


(3)
Message 894 of 1352 (809102)
05-16-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 893 by Davidjay
05-16-2017 10:36 AM


Re: I always answer, 'Just ask Jesus'
Word salad doesn't answer my very specific questions.

You have been ducking, dodging, and weaving to avoid answering these questions for a month.

Face it, you have no answers to these questions, and can't counter the evidence--and that's clear to everyone.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Davidjay, posted 05-16-2017 10:36 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3904
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.4


(1)
Message 895 of 1352 (809119)
05-16-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 893 by Davidjay
05-16-2017 10:36 AM


Re: I always answer, 'Just ask Jesus'
And do see my new signature for further information against evolution ...

Okay.

"Evolutyionists are used to forcing their theory on students and scientists. They are not used to answering any questions on this theory, because it is their religion."

You are obviously kidding.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 893 by Davidjay, posted 05-16-2017 10:36 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 896 by Davidjay, posted 05-16-2017 12:18 PM edge has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 896 of 1352 (809146)
05-16-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 895 by edge
05-16-2017 11:07 AM


Re: I always answer, 'Just ask Jesus'
Not kidding edge, evolutionists force evolution on students and will try and flunk them if they dont adhere to the doctrine of luck and chance. In UNiversity, they do not allow questions to be asked about evolution and its unproven science, as it is deemed a GIVEN.

No one as HEREIN as well is allowed to bring up topics that disagree with evolution. Evolutionists get very upset about answering queries and just say questioners dont understand, rather than evolutionists trying to explain their unproven theories logically. They can;t and so get rather upset.... and subjective.

Just believe say the evolutionists, look at all of us that just believe... believe believe.. shake those dice... and believe


Evolutyionists are used to forcing their theory on students and scientists. They are not used to answering any questions on this theory, because it is their religion. And as a religion it must be accepted by faith.... It is not science and it is not logical or rational and has no facts behind it. Evolution is a con and a LIE. A big one, but because it is forced on the gullible and on students, they must accept it. This their modus operandi...and so when faced with sane biological opposition, they can only be subjective rather than objective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 895 by edge, posted 05-16-2017 11:07 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 897 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2017 12:21 PM Davidjay has not yet responded
 Message 905 by edge, posted 05-17-2017 8:11 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5905
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 897 of 1352 (809148)
05-16-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 896 by Davidjay
05-16-2017 12:18 PM


Re: I always answer, 'Just ask Jesus'
You are still trying to avoid responding to the evidence I posted disproving the flood (see Message 892, above).

You have no answers, eh?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 896 by Davidjay, posted 05-16-2017 12:18 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 898 by edge, posted 05-16-2017 1:37 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
edge
Member
Posts: 3904
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 898 of 1352 (809161)
05-16-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 897 by Coyote
05-16-2017 12:21 PM


Re: I always answer, 'Just ask Jesus'
You are still trying to avoid responding to the evidence I posted disproving the flood (see Message 892, above).
You have no answers, eh?

Just remember, "evolutionists" are the ones who refuse to answer questions. Just keep saying that over and over.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by Coyote, posted 05-16-2017 12:21 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3806
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 899 of 1352 (809166)
05-16-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by edge
05-16-2017 9:59 AM


Re: Six "Flood" Arguments Creationists Can't Answer
The first thing I noticed about this occurrence is that nothing has been published since the 1960's when it was first announced.

PRECAMBRIAN POLLEN IN THE GRAND CANYON — A REEXAMINATION
Precambrian Pollen

The guy who collected the pollen is famous for incompetence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by edge, posted 05-16-2017 9:59 AM edge has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15947
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 900 of 1352 (809168)
05-16-2017 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 863 by CRR
05-11-2017 7:06 AM


Re: Six "Flood" Arguments Creationists Can't Answer
Fossils have turned up in the “wrong” place many times and this continues today. This leads to the range of fossils often being extended. Vertebrates have been confirmed in the early Cambrian. Pollen fossils have been found in Precambrian strata although it was claimed that flowering plants don't occur in the fossil record until early in the Cretaceous era. Grass was not supposed to have evolved until millions of years after the end of the dinosaurs but traces of grass have been found in fossilized dinosaur coprolites (dung). Ducks, squirrels, platypus, beaver-like and badger-like creatures have all been found in ‘dinosaur-era’ rock layers along with bees, cockroaches, frogs and pine trees. Picture T. Rex stomping along with a duck flying overhead. Perhaps that Precambrian rabbit will soon appear.

You're not providing any citations, I notice. I also notice that you have no idea what would constitute the "wrong" place for a fossil.

Finally, I note that none of this answers the point that you cannot explain the order in the fossil record.

Similarly there are many living fossils, animals and plants that were thought to have gone extinct millions of years ago. Coelacanth, Wollemi Pine, a rodent called Laonastes aenigmamus , and a sponge called Nucha vancouverensis are examples.

What of it? If this was a point against evolution, which it isn't, it still wouldn't answer the point that you cannot explain the order in the fossil record.

There are several mechanisms that separately and together could provide a Creationist explanation for the sequence in the fossil record.

No they couldn't. Separately and together, these excuses do not provide an explanation. This has been tried and failed.

See here.

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=19182

Why don't we find mammals underneath Trilobite bearing layers? Because Trilobites lived on the bottom of the ocean and very few mammals lived underneath them.

But we do find marine organisms above terrestrial organisms. Just not trilobites above mammals.

We can also ask how well the fossil record supports the [neo-]Darwinian evolutionary model. Darwin said that according to his theory there should be many finely graded intermediate types but admitted that these did not appear in the fossil record. Darwin hoped that future discoveries would fill in the gaps. Over 100 years later Gould admitted the lack of transitional forms was “the trade secret of paleontology”, and he and Eldridge came up with Punctuated Equilibrium to explain this. This theory has not been a success. Transitional fossils are still missing.

But this is stupid shit that creationists have made up because their drivel can only be supported by telling dumb lies. And if it wasn't a bunch of dumb dirty lies, which it is, it still wouldn't answer the point that you cannot explain the order in the fossil record.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 863 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 7:06 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
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