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Author Topic:   A Creationist Sues the Grand Canyon for Religious Discrimination
Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 99 (809451)
05-18-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Coyote
05-18-2017 12:29 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
God is the God of science as well as everything else, like it or not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Coyote, posted 05-18-2017 12:29 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:46 PM Faith has responded
 Message 48 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-18-2017 12:58 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 47 of 99 (809460)
05-18-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:35 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

God is the God of science as well as everything else, like it or not.

Your beliefs are irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:58 PM Taq has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1589
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 48 of 99 (809465)
05-18-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:35 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
God is the God of science as well as everything else, like it or not.

Well, that's wrong. Science is a method of discovering how the Universe works. Your god keeps it all a secret and reveals nothing. You have deluded yourself into believing things that are clearly at odds with the evidence discovered by science that can be seen by anyone who wants to look.

As I have said numerous times before, your beliefs about geology and biology and evolution are full of holes you cannot explain, thousands of holes. Science is the way to explain them.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 1:00 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 99 (809466)
05-18-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
05-18-2017 12:46 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Kindly keep the context in mind. I'm talking about how a Bible believer has to go about this, and knowing that the Bible is God's own revelation is prior to all else, so this mindless refrain about having to start from some other evidence is totally absolutely irrelevant. If God is God and the Bible is His word it would be idiotic to start with anything but His revelation. Just logic should tell you that much.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 12:46 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 1:01 PM Faith has responded
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-18-2017 1:07 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 58 by jar, posted 05-18-2017 1:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 99 (809471)
05-18-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tanypteryx
05-18-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Funny how "science" has the biggest holes of all, the denial of the clear evidence of the strata and the fossils. Elephant in the room.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-18-2017 12:58 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-18-2017 1:18 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-18-2017 5:48 PM Faith has responded
 Message 73 by Boof, posted 05-18-2017 7:12 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 51 of 99 (809472)
05-18-2017 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

I'm talking about how a Bible believer has to go about this, and knowing that the Bible is God's own revelation is prior to all else, so this mindless refrain about having to start from some other evidence is totally absolutely irrelevant.

What a Bible believer has to do is irrelevant to how reality really is. If a Bible believer has to believe the Moon is made of green cheese, that doesn't force the Moon to suddenly turn into green cheese. What a believer has to do has nothing to do with what the facts are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 1:03 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26592
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 99 (809474)
05-18-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Taq
05-18-2017 1:01 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Can't even follow the logic I see.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 1:01 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 1:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 53 of 99 (809477)
05-18-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
05-18-2017 10:24 AM


Re: Leonardo's unbiblical guesses
You are welcome Faith.

You of course twisted the information to fit your fantasy world. Curiously it doesn't change reality.

I expected nothing else.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 10:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 54 of 99 (809479)
05-18-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
If God is God and the Bible is His word it would be idiotic to start with anything but His revelation.

Sure, start with it if you want. But if your interpretation of the words is completely contradicted by reality, like by the fact that we know without a doubt that the entire planet has not been covered in water since humans have been here, then you should change your interpretation if you're not willing to accept that the words say something that is wrong. Like, perhaps it was just a local flood rather than a global one. Or perhaps it is a tale that never really happened in the first place.

But just tricking yourself into believing what you think you must is a serious disservice to yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 55 of 99 (809481)
05-18-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
05-18-2017 1:03 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

Can't even follow the logic I see.

Can't demonstrate the logic of your argument, I see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 1:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1589
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 56 of 99 (809483)
05-18-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
05-18-2017 1:00 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Funny how "science" has the biggest holes of all, the denial of the clear evidence of the strata and the fossils. Elephant in the room.

Well, that is something that you have demonstrated over and over..... that you don't know any science, while we pointed out to you obvious flaws in all of your arguments.

The clear evidence of the strata and fossils is that the earth has been undergoing geological processes for billions of years while life has been evolving into the diversity we see today. The sequence of layers and fossils is impossible to have been the result of your flood. In science we don't ignore evidence because it disagrees with beliefs or your bible.

When evidence disagrees with the bible, the bible is wrong, no matter what you believe.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 1:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3992
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 57 of 99 (809486)
05-18-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:34 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Local floods could not have deposited them without breaking them to bits.

So you agree that Leonardo was wrong about that.

He thought that some fossils could have been deposited by local floods but the Noachic fludde could not have deposited the fossils he studied. The link I gave does not say that he thought local floods could have deposited the fossils of which he wrote "if the shells had been carried by the muddy deluge they would have been mixed up, and separated from each other amidst the mud, and not in regular steps and layers -- as we see them now in our time."

Why is there such certainty about what the Flood would have done as long as it contradicts what the Bible says?

Because we know a lot of how the physical world works.

Um, the scientists so far quoted disagree with each other quite a bit about how the physical world works.

I certainly haven't see anyone doubt what we know about floods we've observed or left unmistakable traces in the past, or basic hydrodynamics. Got any references?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29608
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 58 of 99 (809487)
05-18-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Faith writes:

I'm talking about how a Bible believer has to go about this, and knowing that the Bible is God's own revelation is prior to all else, so this mindless refrain about having to start from some other evidence is totally absolutely irrelevant.

Once again, that is simply wrong Faith.

There are Bible believers like myself that understand that the Bible is the creation of just plain humans.

But it would be idiotic to take what is written in the Bible over what is written in the rocks, the stars, biology and reality. Just reason should tell you that much.

Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1349
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 59 of 99 (809489)
05-18-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
05-18-2017 12:34 PM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
quote:
Local floods could not have deposited them without breaking them to bits.

So you agree that Leonardo was wrong about that.

Da Vinci didn't say any fossils were deposited by local floods. He was arguing against the idea that they could have been deposited by a flood; since many of them clearly grew in situ. He was of the opinion that the whole earth was once covered by sea, but not in any short term flood. The fact that fossilised corals which show no sign of having been uprooted and deposited by any flood are found in the Alps, showed him that the Alps must have been under the sea for many years.

The full book of his collected notes is available on Sacred Texts here, by the way. His thoughts on the flood and fossils are collected in Chapter 16 in the second volume.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 12:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 60 of 99 (809504)
05-18-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
05-18-2017 11:49 AM


Re: Leonardo inadvertently proves the Flood
Hi Taq,

Taq writes:

If there really was a recent global flood then the facts will lead us to that conclusion independent of the Bible.

What do you base that belief on?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 11:49 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 05-18-2017 4:32 PM ICANT has responded

    
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