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Author Topic:   Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption
Phat
Member
Posts: 10656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 61 of 90 (830481)
03-31-2018 10:21 AM


Low Carb Dieting
Though I will admit that Granny Magda presented a good argument that partially debunked Dr.Rosedales talk which I presented in faiths thread, I remain quite convinced that the overall science in low carb dieting and in reduced need for insulin is my best course of action regarding my approach to my lifestyle, my diet, and my Type II Diabetes. Make no mistake---I have done my homework on this matter. Allow me to explain the facts---(not wild theories) regarding my own individual physiology.

Many years ago, roughly the year 2000, I was diagnosed as a borderline Type II Diabetic. For those of you who do not know, Type I Diabetes--where the pancreas produces no insulin whatsoever---is a totally different disease than Type II Diabetes, characterized by insulin resistance in the body. I had read some of what Diabetes is and does and can do to the body---but I was still unaware of the strength of the disease and what it meant for my responsibility at controlling my own blood sugars. I was the one who, back then, advised my own Doctor that I wanted to take supplemental long acting insulin---the theory being that it would preserve my pancreas from burning out. For better or worse I have always been a rebel in regards to my own health---and in retrospect, it was likely a mistake that I allowed that prescription. As normally happens, I was in a state of denial for many years regarding my responsibility at managing my own disease. I wanted a magic bullet and a shortcut For many years, my A1C readings were as high as 13. Damage was occurring in my lower limbs and throughout my body and the insulin resistance began to increase.
So when I go to see the Doctors, what did they do? They took tests, looked at my readings, and continued prescribing insulin---even upping the dosage and adding Humalog(short-acting insulin before meals) !!!!

As a layman, I had read the official approach that the ADA recommends---it is not nearly as extreme as a low carb diet can be and likely would have been better for me than the insulin, but I loved my food and I wanted to eat what I wanted to eat--for many years. I am a voracious reader, however---and I don't simply read what so-called alternative medicine snake oil gurus sell. Sime of them stumble on to sound science anyway. (Like Mercola) who hosted Dr.Fung on his podcast. For his part, Dr.Fung is only guilty of selling books---I see no evidence that his science is at all bad. The man knows what he is talking about.

He founded Toronto based Intensive Dietary Managment and I know what you guys are gonna see--lots of testimonials and selling books---not to mention that the program is not cheap---though I would argue that traditional medicine is not cheap either---and my wisdom tells me that getting off of insulin or cutting way back is a winning strategy.

I can explain the science in my own words now.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by PaulK, posted 03-31-2018 11:44 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13755
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 62 of 90 (830488)
03-31-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
03-31-2018 10:21 AM


Re: Low Carb Dieting
That sounds strange. Someone who is marginally Type II diabetic would normally get by on Metformin, without even needing extreme dietary changes (although dietary changes would be beneficial, and an extreme calorie restricted diet under medical supervision might even have reversed the disease- although that is a more recent discovery).

If the doctors decided you needed more insulin later, it might be because your disease had worsened to that point. Or they might be honouring your decision to use insulin, or they might have misjudged the situation, assuming that you required insulin, because you were taking it.

I am certainly not convinced that Fung is right in any area where he disagrees with mainstream medical science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 03-31-2018 10:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 03-31-2018 12:37 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 63 of 90 (830493)
03-31-2018 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by PaulK
03-31-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Low Carb Dieting
The Doctor(s) whom I had at the time were not endocrinologists and did not manage the decision making process but rather honored my choice to start the insulin. In retrospect, using the insulin actually increased my insulin resistance. Had I known then what I know now, I could have reversed my diabetes with at most metformin alone. (and diet) but I managed for a few years without abnormally high blood sugars... As for Dr.Fung vs mainstream, two of the highest regarded endocrinologists in Denver, one of whom is my own, advocate the pharmaceuticals and the insulin when needed. They have one goal: Lowering the AlC. They rightly assert that the high blood sugars are what cause the damage.

For several years, my A1C readings were frightful.

11/20/2012- 9.0
6/13/2013-10.5
1/4/2014-13.0
7/28/2014-11.0
02/17/2015-7.2
09/10/2015-8.3
04/02/2016-7.1
10/24/2016-9.1(after I lost my job)
5/17/2017-8.4
12/08/2017-7.3
And I go in on Thursday for the latest number, after I have taken control of my eating and medicines both.

PaulK writes:

If the doctors decided you needed more insulin later, it might be because your disease had worsened to that point. Or they might be honoring your decision to use insulin, or they might have misjudged the situation, assuming that you required insulin, because you were taking it.

I am certainly not convinced that Fung is right in any area where he disagrees with mainstream medical science.

Many people get along just fine on moderate insulin and the ADA Diet. Human nature being what it is, many people often cheat, however. I was one of them. For a few years, this works ok as one can simply increase insulin in order to maintain control. I have always taken control of my health and medicine, (or lost control) just like others have done.

The only drawback to Dr. Fungs approach is that few people are disciplined enough to eliminate potatoes and starches from their diet. If they choose to keep them, they will require more insulin. Doctors are trained to manage a number and prescribe what it takes to achieve that number. They can give nutritional advice, but most patients would rather have their cake and their shots rather than less shots and no cake.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by PaulK, posted 03-31-2018 11:44 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 04-05-2018 8:29 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 64 of 90 (830560)
04-03-2018 2:48 AM


Caloric vs Endocrine Theories

Just because its a video does not mean that it is not informative and full of sound research. I send these to my Endocrinologist as well...she and I will talk on Thursday.

Already after 2 weeks on my lower carb lifestyle I have dropped 10 pounds and have a lower resting heart rate. The verdict will be when I find out my A1C on Thursday.

Also, I am getting feeling back in my feet and my legs have decreased swelling. My hunch is paying off.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10656
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(3)
Message 65 of 90 (830737)
04-05-2018 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
03-31-2018 12:37 PM


At The Endocrinologist.
Today is Day 108 in Gambling and the 5th official day of my low carb eating program.(though I've been doing it off and on since March 15th) and i'm finally burning fat efficiently. So today, I went to see my Endocrinologist at Denver Endo. As noted above, my prior blood sugar readings, on full insulin plus Trulicity, were always above 7 and once as high as 13. Today I informed the Doctor that I had cut my insulin dose in half and also quit taking Trulicity. My A1C came back at 6.3! (Normal is 5.5-6.0)
She asked me what I had done and I told her about my Lo Carb diet approach plus Dr.Jason Fung and the theory that insulin causes insulin resistance. She told me to keep doing what I was doing, with one provision: For two weeks I need to take my blood four times a day to check my sugar pattern.

Conclusions:

  • Just because a Doctor sells books does not preclude him from knowing medical science.
  • My intuition was pretty good concerning my solution.

  • I am responsible for my health and know my body better than the Doctors do in some cases, though it is also wise to have them monitor my progress.

    I go back again in 3 months, and I eagerly await the results of how much my neuropathy can heal by then.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by Phat, posted 03-31-2018 12:37 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 66 by Phat, posted 04-07-2018 12:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10656
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 66 of 90 (830785)
    04-07-2018 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
    04-05-2018 8:29 PM


    Where Do I Go From Here?
    My bloodwork results hav come back and in every measure I am on the road to improvement except that my blood pressure is up a bit. Since the fat burning and fueling with ketones over glucose has only just begun, my next plan is to get some consistency under my belt and maintain strict blood sugar control. The Doctors and I again disagree, though I can understand how they are medically liable for giving the best advice that real-world science offers. For example, she wants me to take Lipitor. I have taken it in the past, and although it does control my LDL very well (targeting a number) it has many side effects that I dont particularly like. This last blood test came back with my LDL under 100 (goal) at 93 without the Lipitor, so I figure why even take it?

    I'll let her know my decision.(they document all of my decisions in their records)

    Their basic argument is that nobody can live on a low carb intermittent fasting approach for their entire lives and that the reality of an honest lifestyle has its normal diet (that Tangle talks about) with its days of birthday cake, carbs, and as a result needed insulin. It is how they are taught, and I suspect that they receive funds from the pharmaceutical companies for conducting surveys and trials on various prescriptions. Quite honestly, my track record over 5 years regarding carbs has been both good and bad, as they say. My argument, however, is that I can learn to live (and relish) a low carb diet for life, and that it will give my body time to heal by reducing the need for insulin ages the body and just as my friend in Greece did, I will eventually gain back much of my insulin sensitivity and will only then be able to cheat once in awhile at a special event like a wedding or birthday. (Right now if I eat carbs, my legs and feet hurt and begin to swell and I feel like crap!)

    While my weight dropped from 245 to 234 in under a month, it is too soon to determine the long-range ramifications of these relatively sudden changes.

    Ringo tells me to watch out for confirmation bias, and I need to focus on reality over fantasy. Just yesterday I was daydreaming of the time 25 years ago when I could ride my bicycle 70 miles in a day and when I was younger and felt much stronger than I do now. Reality suggests that I will never become young again.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by Phat, posted 04-05-2018 8:29 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10656
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 67 of 90 (830800)
    04-07-2018 3:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
    07-26-2017 8:50 AM


    I may switch Doctors
    I did some research and found a local Doctor who is more in line with what I believe.
    Dr.Jeffrey Gerber

    He is, like Dr.Fung, an online personality, but it appears that he understands the same science that I have been studying, and I think he would be a better fit for my eccentric and rebellious nature.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 07-26-2017 8:50 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 68 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2018 4:36 PM Phat has responded
     Message 71 by ringo, posted 04-08-2018 2:35 PM Phat has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 5569
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 68 of 90 (830809)
    04-07-2018 4:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
    04-07-2018 3:19 PM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    It's the internet Phat, you can find anything and anybody you like, if all you want is self-reinforcement.

    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by Phat, posted 04-07-2018 3:19 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by Phat, posted 04-07-2018 4:39 PM Tangle has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10656
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 69 of 90 (830810)
    04-07-2018 4:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
    04-07-2018 4:36 PM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    in this area of study, I am no dummy. I have learned a lot about the science through multiple sources. Additionally, I had a friend who resensitized his insulin response and who lost 100 pounds. You can't refute the science behind low carb, non-insulin approaches to Type II.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2018 4:36 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 70 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2018 4:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 5569
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 70 of 90 (830857)
    04-08-2018 4:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
    04-07-2018 4:39 PM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    Phat writes:

    in this area of study, I am no dummy. I have learned a lot about the science through multiple sources. Additionally, I had a friend who resensitized his insulin response and who lost 100 pounds. You can't refute the science behind low carb, non-insulin approaches to Type II.

    I wish you the best, I just fear that within the year you'll be on yet another faddy plan that you are certain of and can find people on the internet that agree with you about.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by Phat, posted 04-07-2018 4:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 14497
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 71 of 90 (830897)
    04-08-2018 2:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
    04-07-2018 3:19 PM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    Phat writes:

    He is, like Dr.Fung, an online personality, but it appears that he understands the same science that I have been studying....


    Getting a second opinion doesn't mean Google's.

    An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by Phat, posted 04-07-2018 3:19 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by Phat, posted 04-09-2018 11:53 AM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10656
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 72 of 90 (830940)
    04-09-2018 11:53 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
    04-08-2018 2:35 PM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    ringo writes:

    Getting a second opinion doesn't mean Google's.

    My but you are a snippy one! He was recommended to me by a friend who has lost 120 pounds, and was also a Type II Diabetic shackled to many unneeded medications and who now is healthy and living in Greece 50 yards from the beach. (His late Father lived in a village and willed the property to him)

    I have set up an appointment on May 30th with Dr.Jeffrey Gerber. His credentials seem to check out, and all that I see uniques about him vs my old Doctor is that he is knowledgeable as to the correct science involved in treating Type II Diabetes vs the old school drugs and medical approach---though if needed he can also prescribe medication. One reason that I brought this whole diabetes/exercise/diet personal problem up here at EvC is that many of you have an education, as do many of the Doctors who are, in fact, wrong regarding treatment of this disease. It is time to face the evidence and quit looking up to science blindly while also dismissing the newer information as quack science. I see the new Doctor May 30th at which time I will again have blood work done as well as advice on which medicines to keep and which to discontinue. The numbers don't lie. My blood sugar is at the best that it has been in 10 years thanks to my own initiative and taking charge of my medications myself...but I want a Doctor on board who understands the science which I am pursuing rather than one who is in bed with the pharmaceutical industry.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by ringo, posted 04-08-2018 2:35 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by ringo, posted 04-09-2018 12:04 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 14497
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 73 of 90 (830945)
    04-09-2018 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
    04-09-2018 11:53 AM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    Phat writes:

    It is time to face the evidence and quit looking up to science blindly while also dismissing the newer information as quack science.


    I'm just saying, let the doctors weigh the evidence.

    An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by Phat, posted 04-09-2018 11:53 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by Phat, posted 04-09-2018 12:15 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10656
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 74 of 90 (830948)
    04-09-2018 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
    04-09-2018 12:04 PM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    Ive given the traditional endocrinologists a try for 3 years. They incorrectly prescribed insulin and actually caused me to become more insulin resistant. They refused to listen to me when I advocated the lower insulin low carb approach and wanted to sign me up for studies conducted by the pharmaceutical industry.

    http://www.9news.com/...ence-behind-the-keto-diet/73-2782902

    This is my new Doctor on TV. I am going with him and his posse.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by ringo, posted 04-09-2018 12:04 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by ringo, posted 04-09-2018 12:29 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 14497
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 75 of 90 (830951)
    04-09-2018 12:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
    04-09-2018 12:15 PM


    Re: I may switch Doctors
    Phat writes:

    This is my new Doctor on TV.


    That says it all.

    An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by Phat, posted 04-09-2018 12:15 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by Phat, posted 04-09-2018 2:56 PM ringo has responded

      
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