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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 91 of 170 (820265)
09-18-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
09-18-2017 11:45 AM



Do you understand that digging resources out of the ground requires labour?

I do, but the resources already have value before they're dug out of the ground.

Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor.

If labor is the only source of value, then who's labor causes the value that naturally occurs in the resources?

From Message 87:

Show me a capitalist who says he doesn't "work hard' for his money.

Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor.

Also, not all hard work is labor, imho.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 11:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:34 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 92 of 170 (820266)
09-18-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-18-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Irma will be costly
Phat writes:

Yes...if the money comes out of social security trust funds simply to pay mass labor.


Really? Rebuilding somebody's home is a bad thing? Paying somebody to work is a bad thing? Really? Your own social security is more important? Really?

(And your contempt for "mass labor" is showing through again.)

Phat writes:

For the vanishing middle class, our future is tied up in "future obligations" while current obligations rob us of what we collectively saved.


If your own future is so bloody important, you should be trying to untie it.

Phat writes:

The whole problem with the rising tide argument is that it demolishes all of the houses built above water level.


You're confusing your metaphors. The rising tide argument doesn't demolish anything. It allows the poorest members of society to have decent housing.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 12:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 93 of 170 (820267)
09-18-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
09-18-2017 12:18 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor.


Where does the 100 bucks you gained come from? At some point, doesn't somebody work for it, even if you don't?

New cat's Eye writes:

Say I buy a plot of land for 100 bucks, and somebody offers me 200 bucks for the rights to harvest the timber. I just gained 100 bucks through no labor.


Say I walk into a bank with a gun and walk out with 100 bucks. I just gained 100 bucks with no labour.

But didn't somebody work for that 100 bucks?

New Cat's Eye writes:

Also, not all hard work is labor, imho.


And not all water is wet, I suppose. If you define it like that, you can come up with any conclusion you want.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 12:18 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 12:39 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 94 of 170 (820268)
09-18-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
09-17-2017 8:51 PM


Except for natural resources - those things are the shit.

There are a few other things that are roughly equivalent. Some man-made things have a value that appreciates over time. Wine stored in a dark cellar, or a 67 Mustang put away and never driven. The value of your house might increase because some capitalist wants to put a cell phone tower smack dab in your living room. The added value in each of those cases is no more labor-based than are the trees growing on your land that somebody wants. Those things are increases simply because other humans want or need for your objects increases.

Value of a painting after the artist dies, or because his other works were destroyed in a museum fire.

but value, itself, is a human creation. It requires people, and at the very bottom somebody has to make the value.

Of course, but not all such creations are through labor. What happens when factories become fully automated... Could we agree that the value then is created primarily without labor?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-17-2017 8:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:38 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 95 of 170 (820269)
09-18-2017 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by NoNukes
09-18-2017 12:35 PM


NoNukes writes:

Those things are increases simply because other humans want or need for your objects increases.


The "value" is what the buyer is willing to pay - and his ability to pay is based on labour.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by NoNukes, posted 09-18-2017 12:35 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 09-18-2017 12:39 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 96 of 170 (820270)
09-18-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
09-18-2017 12:34 PM


Where does the 100 bucks you gained come from? At some point, doesn't somebody work for it, even if you don't?

Your claim is not that all bucks come from labor. It is that all value comes from labor. It's not true.

If labor is the only source of value, then who's labor causes the value that naturally occurs in the resources?

If you define it like that,

I'm still waiting for your definition of labor.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:48 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 97 of 170 (820271)
09-18-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
09-18-2017 12:38 PM


The "value" is what the buyer is willing to pay - and his ability to pay is based on labour.

Sometimes, Ringo. Not always. Not all money is made by expending labor.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:38 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:50 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 98 of 170 (820273)
09-18-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by New Cat's Eye
09-18-2017 12:39 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Your claim is not that all bucks come from labor. It is that all value comes from labor.


Value is measured in bucks. If bucks come from labour then value comes from labour.

New Cat's Eye writes:

If labor is the only source of value, then who's labor causes the value that naturally occurs in the resources?


You haven't established that natural resources have any "value' beyond what can be added by labor.

New Cat's Eye writes:

I'm still waiting for your definition of labor.


In Message 84 you said, "...you could define labor so broadly as to be like "human activity" or something...." and in Message 91 you said, "...not all hard work is labor...."

I lean more toward the first one. Maybe you can give some examples of human activity that can't be called labour.

I'd also be interested in your idea of the difference between work and labour. I might go so far as to say that even easy work is labour.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 12:39 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 1:27 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 99 of 170 (820275)
09-18-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by NoNukes
09-18-2017 12:39 PM


NoNukes writes:

Sometimes, Ringo. Not always. Not all money is made by expending labor.


Then give some examples. When is something worth more than what the buyer is willing or able to pay?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 09-18-2017 12:39 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by NoNukes, posted 09-18-2017 1:45 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 100 of 170 (820276)
09-18-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ringo
09-18-2017 12:48 PM


You haven't established that natural resources have any "value' beyond what can be added by labor.

Someone paid me for the rights to harvest the trees from my property. Those trees have value before anybody has ever touched them, and I made money off them without doing anything. I just had to own the land.

Who's labor do I owe the value of the rights to those trees to? Nobody planted them, they were just there when I bought the place. Nobody has chopped them down yet, they just paid for the rights to.

But I still made money through no labor of my own.

Maybe you can give some examples of human activity that can't be called labour.

Maybe you could define the terms you're using instead of making people guess and check...

Owning the business requires human activity but they are typically excluded from the labor class.
Making sales deals on the fruits of the labor is also typically exluded from the labor class.
The stock brokers trying to sell shares in the company are typically excluded from the labor class.
The Accounting and Human Resources Department are sometimes exluded and sometimes included.

The context that you entered the discussion was:

quote:
Human Labor.

Spoken like a true member of the proletariat.


From wiki:

quote:
The working class (also labouring class and proletariat) are the people employed for wages, especially in manual-labour occupations and in skilled, industrial work. Working-class occupations include blue-collar jobs, some white-collar jobs, and most service-work jobs. The working class only rely upon their earnings from wage labour, thereby, the category includes most of the working population of industrialized economies, of the urban areas (cities, towns, villages) of non-industrialized economies, and of the rural workforce.

In Marxist theory and socialist literature, the term working class is often used interchangeably with the term proletariat, and includes all workers who expend both physical and mental labour (salaried knowledge workers and white-collar workers) to produce economic value for the owners of the means of production (the bourgeoisie in Marxist literature).


So in that context, when you say all value comes from labor, its pretty ambiguous what you mean.

At face value it is wrong. But you won't explain what you meant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by xongsmith, posted 09-18-2017 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 108 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 11:45 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 101 of 170 (820278)
09-18-2017 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ringo
09-18-2017 12:50 PM


When is something worth more than what the buyer is willing or able to pay?

1) Things are often worth more than the buyer is able to pay. In that case, he does not end up purchasing them. That does not prevent the putative from recognizing the value is beyond is ability to pay. But that is not even the issue here. The ultimate buyer still does not have to pay using labor. He can earn money in transactions that do not involve labor.

2) I've given examples, and you've given answers similar to this one that do not get to the point.

3) Often things have value in addition to the labor created value. Often that additional value can be converted to cash in a transaction that does not involve labor. For example, I can extract money from my house by borrowing more than its appreciated value, investing the funds in some passive income like buying wine to age. In the end, I can settle up and have additional funds with no expenditure of labor. It can very well be that everyone that I exchange with earned their money in similar, non-labor, ways

Now if you want to call every act of endeavor labor, then you are just equivocating about the definition of labor. Yes, I agree that if there were no humans there is no value. I don't agree that all value comes from labor. Some value can be created merely by increases scarcity or increased demand. The question of how I monetize that value is a separate issue.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-19-2017 11:52 AM NoNukes has responded

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(2)
Message 102 of 170 (820287)
09-18-2017 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
09-18-2017 1:27 PM


can't help it if I'm Lucky.
New Cat's Eye writes

Someone paid me for the rights to harvest the trees from my property. Those trees have value before anybody has ever touched them, and I made money off them without doing anything. I just had to own the land.

Who's labor do I owe the value of the rights to those trees to? Nobody planted them, they were just there when I bought the place. Nobody has chopped them down yet, they just paid for the rights to.

But I still made money through no labor of my own.

But just how did you acquire the property? By your own labor you were able to buy the property. Or by your parents' or grandparents', etc., labors done earlier.


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 1:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 4:16 PM xongsmith has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 103 of 170 (820289)
09-18-2017 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by xongsmith
09-18-2017 3:41 PM


Re: can't help it if I'm Lucky.
But just how did you acquire the property? By your own labor you were able to buy the property.

Sure, the original 100 bucks came from the value of my labor.

But now I have an extra hundred bucks that came from no labor at all.

Dude hasn't even paid me to get the trees yet, he just bought the rights to the timber.

So there's actually two labor-less values here: the trees themselves, and the rights to the timber.

The trees naturally exist and have value - no labor needed.

I acquire the right to the value of the trees by purchasing the property - no labor needed.

Then I sell the rights and make money without labor.

Then the guy pays me to come and get them and I get more money without labor.

Or here's another one:

I bought some silver bullion years ago when the price was low. The price has sense gone up. If I sell that silver bullion at a profit, where is the labor that this extra value that the silver has came from? I haven't done shit, it's been sitting in a safe.

Before you go on about the labor needed for the money that I'm selling the silver for - I'm not talking about the value of that money, I'm talking about the value of the silver, itself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by xongsmith, posted 09-18-2017 3:41 PM xongsmith has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10240
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 104 of 170 (820290)
09-18-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
09-18-2017 4:16 PM


Re: can't help it if I'm Lucky.
The trees naturally exist and have value - no labor needed.

I acquire the right to the value of the trees by purchasing the property - no labor needed.

Value is defined in human terms of need. The trees have value as flooring or other wood by-products. Labor is involved in creating that added hundred dollars. The property has value as a place to live or to exploit or to simply enjoy. You sold your trees so it appears you don't mind losing them.

The Indians never could understand how the palefaces attached a monetary value to land, rivers, and trees. If there were a sudden scarcity of wood and you yourself needed it, you may have to pay someone else many times what you made with your deal. Value always involves labor in one way or another.

Art is priceless simply because no agreeable value can be found.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-18-2017 4:16 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 09-18-2017 6:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 107 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 9:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10125
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 105 of 170 (820294)
09-18-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
09-18-2017 4:43 PM


Re: can't help it if I'm Lucky.
Art is priceless simply because no agreeable value can be found.

Pieces of art change hands for money quite often Phat. Apparently, two or more people can agree on a value for a piece of art.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 4:43 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
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