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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13223
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 196 of 353 (821468)
10-08-2017 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Faith
10-08-2017 9:28 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
That's not the question I asked.


...in the human perspective God wants to save everyone and in God's perspective that's not true at all. Perhaps you can explain how they could both be true. Or even how there could be a "different perspective" on that question.

Try again.

Edited by PaulK, : Fixed tag


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 9:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by kbertsche, posted 10-08-2017 11:16 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4300
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 197 of 353 (821480)
10-08-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Faith
10-08-2017 8:23 AM


Re: Inspiration or dictation?
Faith writes:

Loving your neighbor does require the punishment of transgressors to keep your neighbor from committing them.

... and so to prevent them from transgressing you kill them, including their infants.

Look at Jesus. He said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc. The point being that to defeat evil you change hearts with the one weapon that can actually do that, and it is as Paul says in Ephesians 6:

quote:
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

You cannot reconcile worshiping an inerrant reading of the scriptures with worshiping Jesus as the embodied Word of God. God resurrected Jesus, He didn’t resurrect a book. The Bible is however a gift from God that if understood properly, as Jesus did, will speak to our hearts and minds.

Also again of course you duck the question of why God didn’t just slaughter the enemies of the Israelites Himself.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 8:23 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16019
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 198 of 353 (821491)
10-08-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:

Often what looks at first like a contradiction is really a matter of context.

Often what looks like a contradiction is a contradiction.

Arminian concepts relate to the human perspective for instance, while Calvinist concepts describe God's perspective,...

Calvinism describes God's perspective? Man claiming to know how God sees things? Really, this is Calvinism?

...so there is no contradiction. Both are true.

Well, there's an indefensible position. The Wikipedia article on the History of the Calvinist–Arminian debate goes on for pages and pages, but you think both are true? That's ridiculous. This little difference seems particularly hard to resolve:

quote:
Arminius taught that Calvinist predestination and unconditional election made God the author of evil. Instead, Arminius insisted, God's election was an election of believers and therefore was conditioned on faith. Furthermore, Arminius argued, God's exhaustive foreknowledge did not require a doctrine of determinism.

So in Armninius's view the Calvinist God is evil, but in the Calvinist view God is not evil. Please explain how both are true?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9881
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 199 of 353 (821492)
10-08-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
09-19-2017 9:19 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
I haven't the slightest cognitive dissonance about the Flood or the inerrancy of the Bible. There's no point in "entertaining" a contradiction of either notion when I know it is false. It has nothing to do with being "threatened," or even to do with anything I WANT to be true, it's just that I know what I know.
As a Christian representing Gods Word, you simply must respond in science and evidence-based forums. To fail to do so is dishonest and reflects poorly on the Christ within you.

Walthers Law

How would you like it if it is someday discovered that RAZD, Tangle, and many others who may have accepted Jesus based on seeing honesty in you instead rejected Him due to your behavior?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 9:19 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:33 PM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 353 (821495)
10-08-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
10-08-2017 3:15 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
I disagree, Phat, I do not have to subject the Bible to scientific inquiry. There is nothing dishonest about that stance, and I find your attitude reprehensible. A radical stand for God against all the compromising nonsense you are always flirting with shouldn't dissuade anyone from Christ.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 10-08-2017 3:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 10-08-2017 3:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 205 by Percy, posted 10-08-2017 4:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9881
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 201 of 353 (821497)
10-08-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:33 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
The key issue is honesty versus silence. If people see us as honest they will be more likely to forgive us for disagreeing with them. If they only get silence and refusal to answer, it shows poorly on the character of Christ. IMHO anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 8:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 353 (821498)
10-08-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
10-08-2017 3:39 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 10-08-2017 3:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2017 4:26 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 206 by Percy, posted 10-08-2017 4:42 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 207 by GDR, posted 10-08-2017 6:04 PM Faith has responded
 Message 214 by Paboss, posted 10-09-2017 7:50 AM Faith has responded
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 11:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16019
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 203 of 353 (821500)
10-08-2017 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
09-19-2017 9:19 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
I just became aware of your Message 6 when Phat just replied to it.

Faith writes:

I haven't the slightest cognitive dissonance about the Flood or the inerrancy of the Bible.

You not only have cognitive dissonance about the Flood and Biblical inerrancy versus the real world, you even have cognitive dissonance about your cognitive dissonance. Your definition of faith is unfortunate for you, since it requires that faith be supported by evidence, because the real world is not going to accommodate you.

There's no point in "entertaining" a contradiction of either notion when I know it is false.

Except that when you seek evidence to support your faith in your beliefs, it isn't there. You're instead forced to concoct fantasy scenarios that send you into a cognitive dissonance so extreme that you reject not just reality but even simple common sense.

It has nothing to do with being "threatened," or even to do with anything I WANT to be true, it's just that I know what I know.

What people know is based upon evidence, and you have no evidence.

My beliefs regarding Islam are also a matter of objective truth...

Your beliefs regarding Islam are biased, bigoted, and unbecoming as a Christian.

...and have nothing to do with any personal attitude toward Muslims,...

Oh, sure, I'm sure everyone here has no trouble believing that your attitude toward Muslims is any more Christian than the attitude you display toward anyone here who dares to disagree with you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 9:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13223
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 204 of 353 (821501)
10-08-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:42 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean running away from perfectly sensible points you can't answer. Nor does it include trying to cover up that fact by whining about "personal attacks" when your running away gets mentioned.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16019
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 205 of 353 (821503)
10-08-2017 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:33 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

I disagree, Phat, I do not have to subject the Bible to scientific inquiry.

Of course you have to "subject the Bible to scientific inquiry," or at least academically rigorous analysis. As you've reminded us many times, the faith you have in your beliefs must be backed by evidence, and the production and/or identification of evidence requires scientific or academic rigor.

There is nothing dishonest about that stance,...

Well, if not dishonest it is at least contradictory.

...and I find your attitude reprehensible.

Well of course you find Phat's attitude reprehensible. He's disagreeing with you, something you won't tolerate without berating and excoriating.

A radical stand for God against all the compromising nonsense you are always flirting with shouldn't dissuade anyone from Christ.

"Radical" isn't the adjective I'd apply to your "stand for God". Unchristian fits much better, especially for a position constructed so well to give people a picture of Christianity as a vehicle of hate and intolerance.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16019
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 206 of 353 (821504)
10-08-2017 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:42 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.

<me not answering>

Seriously, if the evidence is on your side, why your reluctance to discuss it? Why all the anger in the face of disagreement? Why all the hate of other theologies and religions? Why never any hint of the Christian principles of love and humility? Could your lack of answers be forcing you down other avenues?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4300
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 207 of 353 (821513)
10-08-2017 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:42 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:

There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.

Is this issue I last raised in post #197 one that you would categorize that way?

GDR writes:

Also again of course, you duck the question of why God didn’t just slaughter the enemies of the Israelites Himself.

You consistently won't deal with that issue.

One other question I have for you. On what grounds is it that you believe in an inerrant understanding of the Scriptures? What causes you to hold so firmly to that belief?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 9:00 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 353 (821522)
10-08-2017 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
10-08-2017 3:39 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat, I started the policy of refusing to answer or even read posts from people who attack me personally and won't apologize. That policy is still in force and now your obnoxious personal attack on me means I'm ignoring you tool
This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 10-08-2017 3:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Percy, posted 10-09-2017 9:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 353 (821524)
10-08-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by GDR
10-08-2017 6:04 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
My understanding is that the Israelites represent God's own army against evil, and that when Jesus returns all those who belong to Him will become part of that army against the demonic hordes that have ruled the world until then. He could always do all of it Himself, He doesn't need anyone. He could also send all of us to Hell but He chose to send a Savior.

There is no value to a Bible that is not inerrant. "All scripture is God-breathed" is enough evidence for me. And God has the power to do it. If I had to listen to preachers picking and choosing the way you do I would never be a Christian at all. You accuse me of worshiping the Bible which is totally false, but what you do by picking and choosing is put your own fallen mind in the place of God.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by GDR, posted 10-08-2017 6:04 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Percy, posted 10-09-2017 10:24 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 226 by GDR, posted 10-09-2017 1:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1405
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 210 of 353 (821528)
10-08-2017 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by PaulK
10-08-2017 9:34 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
PaulK writes:


That's not the question I asked.

...in the human perspective God wants to save everyone and in God's perspective that's not true at all. Perhaps you can explain how they could both be true. Or even how there could be a "different perspective" on that question.

Try again.


Here's my try at a brief explanation of the apparent contradiction between God's sovereign choice and our free will:

God's DESIRE is that all would be saved (2 Pet 3:9). But people don't want salvation (Rom 1:18-32); they prefer darkness to light (Jn 3:19). Left to their own, no one would be saved. So, by His mercy, God has DETERMINED to save some people, even though none of us deserve it.

Why does God only save some, but not all? Is He being unjust? It may seem so, but we can't see the whole picture. Paul addressed this apparent injustice directly in Rom 9:14-24, implying that it may be too hard for us to understand, but that God's actions are perfectly just.

Both God's choice and our free will are taught in the Bible. Both are suggested in one verse, in fact:

quote:
John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Again, I see this apparent contradiction between God's choice and our free will as analogous to wave-particle duality. We tend to think that waves and particles are completely different from one another, and that an electron or photon cannot be both at the same time. But the data shows us otherwise. We need to be honest with the data, even though it may not make sense to our intuition and may seem to be an apparent contradiction. In the same way, if the biblical data is clear on an issue of apparent contradiction, we need to be honest with the biblical data, whether it is the dual human-divine nature of Jesus, the unity-Trinity of God, or God's choice and our free will regarding salvation.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2017 9:34 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2017 12:31 AM kbertsche has responded
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 10-09-2017 1:02 AM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
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