Christianity and the End Times

jaywill,to PaulK writes:Skeptics often try to establish a Coach / Student relationship with Christians, as if the latter should seek guidance from the skeptic how to argue a case.
Since some of your comments act as if I need to come to you for coaching how to present my case, I'll give priority to the more interesting comments of substance.

Having spent the majority of my life compartmentalizing my religious beliefs to keep them safe from skepticism, it's thrilling to leave the critical, investigative, hungry portion of my brain turned "on". While my own pursuit of knowledge is a powerful driving force in my life, I'd also like to prevent others from wasting another day on irrational beliefs. Education is the key ...and if my work manages to educate even one person, I'm satisfied.

ringo writes:And another thing: Genesis 3 talks about enmity between Eve's seed and the serpent's seed. If the serpent was "Satan", that would mean that Satan had descendants. That's pretty far-fetched.

John 8:43-45 writes:3 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

1. "Our father, which art the devil" was a murderer from the beginning? That's undocumented.

2. He has no truth in him? That would suggest that our father, who art the devil, is not the snake, because the snake told the truth.

3. And what has murder got to do with truth anyway?

jaywill writes:The sign of the Woman standing and the Dragon waiting is seen in heaven (Rev. 12:1) . This does not mean that the Body of saints are IN heaven. But that the vision pertains to something so universal to be seen from the transcendent viewpoint of God.The Woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and with a crown of twelve stars is reminiscent of Joseph's vision of God's elect on earth in Genesis 37:9.The Woman also is reminiscent of Eve promised to bring forth a worthy opponent of the serpent to defeat him in Genesis 3:15.She cried out to deliver a child. The child refers to the Manchild of verse 5 specifically. That child is the stronger part within her. We should contrast Woman with Manchild as we would contrast the weaker vessel with the stronger vessel.Throughout all generations a stronger part of all of God's people forms an entity within the entire body of God's people. These form a collective fighting unit on behalf of the larger body of saints.Throughout the Bible, a remnant among all of God's saints fight the battle of bringing in God's kingdom and authority to the earth.God's people have been suffering the travail of delivery - (Isa. 26:17-18; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Gal. 4:19) to bring forth a stronger and prevailing unit of saints to fight the battle for God in the spiritual warfare and bring in the kingdom of God.The travailing and crying out include the prayers of God's people.

Faith writes:I don't see how the Manchild can be any other than Jesus, who is to rule the world with a rod of iron, and there is nothing to suggest that this figure is in any sense plural as you seem to be saying. While His followers are certainly to have His nature, and do get to participate in His battles there's a way you seem to make far more of our part than scripture allows: He is the sovereign king, all the power is His, we are always needing His sustenance and help. But mostly I just don't see anything in the passage itself that includes believers in the figure of the Manchild.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman
The devil was very angry with the church, because he could not destroy her by the Arian persecution he had raised; and because he could not carry her away with the flood, either of errors and heresies, or of the barbarous nations; and because he could not, by any means, come at her, and indeed did not well know where she was, a place being prepared for her of God in the wilderness, where she was taken care of: wherefore he took another method as follows, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed;
which refers to the war the beast, to whom he gave his power, seat, and authority, is said to make with the saints; and which was entered into and carried on by his instigation, of which there is an account in the following chapter: the persons with whom he went to make war are described as "her seed"; the seed of the church, her spiritual offspring, the sons and daughters she brought forth to Christ; between which seed, and Satan and his seed, there always was an enmity: and these are "the remnant" of her seed, a few persons scattered up and down, a remnant according to the election of grace; who were not in bodies, or in church states, regularly formed, as heretofore, but in private families, and some here, and some there; and who were called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times: and these are further described as such who keep the commandments of God:
and not the traditions of men: nor are the commands of the moral law of God so much designed, though it is true that these were kept by the seed of the church; but rather the ordinances of the Gospel, the commands of God our Saviour, such as baptism and the Lord's supper; which were kept by these faithful ones, as they had been delivered, when they began now to be sadly corrupted by the antichristian party: and have the testimony of Jesus Christ;
the Gospel, which is a testimony concerning him; (See Gill on Revelation 1:2). This they had in their hearts, a spiritual knowledge and saving experience of it; and this they had in their hands, they made a profession of it, they held it forth, and held it fast; all which was the reason of Satan's enmity against them, and war with them.

jaywill writes: The tactics of these skeptics include making each part of the Scripture as unrelated to any other part as they can.

PaulK responding writes:Presumably you are talking about yourself, given your frequent attempts to ignore the context of the verses you cite.

jar writes:One group decides what they want the conclusion to show.One group simply looks at what the text says regardless of any desired outcome.

John 6:44-45 writes: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man, therefore, that hath heard and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.