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Phat
Member
Posts: 11624
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 16 of 38 (837122)
07-27-2018 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
07-26-2018 4:17 PM


The Bill Gets Paid
jar writes:

Wrestling the US away from globalization simply means the rest of the world will get along just fine; the already rich will get along just fine.

We have talked about the idea and fact that "the bill will get paid" for many years now...only it seems much more ominous now than it did ten years ago.

Something in my gut intuitiveness tells me that the policies forming in the Trump administration presuppose that the bill has to be paid before the United States will ever become great again. Trump himself has undergone personal bankruptcies before and may feel that a US default and bankruptcy is inevitable. If the Republicans play their cards right, they can even set it up so that the actual collapse will occur during the next Democratic swing of the political cycle. How convenient! They realize that their own blue-collar supporters will never turn on them, even preferring to endure national bankruptcy and reorganization over sharing the stage with the liberal educated elitists who are largely Democratic anyway.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-26-2018 4:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-27-2018 7:33 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 07-27-2018 12:28 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 17 of 38 (837123)
07-27-2018 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
07-27-2018 5:53 AM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
Phat writes:

Trump himself has undergone personal bankruptcies before and may feel that a US default and bankruptcy is inevitable.

No Phat, Trump has never gone through personal bankruptcy; it has been the companies and their employees that have suffered bankruptcy.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-27-2018 5:53 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 18 of 38 (837131)
07-27-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
07-27-2018 5:53 AM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
Phat writes:

... presuppose that the bill has to be paid before the United States will ever become great again.


The United States will never become great again. You should be aiming for decency instead. (Or you could try measuring greatness in terms of decency.)

Edited by ringo, : spellinG.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-27-2018 5:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 07-27-2018 12:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11624
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 19 of 38 (837135)
07-27-2018 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
07-27-2018 12:28 PM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
The United States will never become great again.
Neither will Great Britain.
You should be aiming for decency instead.
Thats my point. We need to just mind our own business and mend our own fences. We should quit being so mean to the people who want to come work here in order to find a better life since it is they who will pay the social security necessary for the rest of us baby boomers to successfully retire.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 07-27-2018 12:28 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 07-27-2018 1:08 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 20 of 38 (837138)
07-27-2018 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
07-27-2018 12:55 PM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
Phat writes:

We should quit being so mean to the people who want to come work here in order to find a better life since it is they who will pay the social security necessary for the rest of us baby boomers to successfully retire.


I would call that a side-effect rather than a goal. If you practice decency for its own sake (kind of a Christ-like thing), there may be benefits down the road or there may not. If you look at everything with a what's-in-it-for-me attitude, it's going to be hard to keep up the decency.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 07-27-2018 12:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 07-29-2018 6:03 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11624
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 21 of 38 (837236)
07-29-2018 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
07-27-2018 1:08 PM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
But how do we keep China from taking over everything??

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 07-27-2018 1:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 07-29-2018 7:13 AM Phat has responded
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 07-29-2018 2:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 22 of 38 (837238)
07-29-2018 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
07-29-2018 6:03 AM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
Phat writes:

But how do we keep China from taking over everything??

What?

Just how could China take over everything?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 07-29-2018 6:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 07-29-2018 9:54 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11624
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 23 of 38 (837240)
07-29-2018 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
07-29-2018 7:13 AM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
jar writes:

Just how could China take over everything?

What Will Happen When China Takes Control Of Your Internet?
This is one article from Forbes. It explains how China is poised to dominate globally in the tech (information/smartphone/financial business.
Then there is this article. Is China Taking Over The World?

quote:
Language like that can make China's intentions seem sinister, and even though some politicians and economists may believe the country is plotting for world domination, what's more likely afoot is that China is in a two-way fight with the United States for the most foreign interests. These interests serve a purpose, but what they all add up to is control of foreign resources and commodities, as well as in a militaristic sense. The old adage "whoever dies with the most toys wins" is a joke, but the idea could apply to the battle being waged between the United States and China. In this case, it's not toys, but military bases, trade partners, and rights to natural resources in foreign countries. In other words, which country gains or retains the title of superpower.
My main worry in all of this is the financial one. If our dollar loses its global reserve currency status, things will cost a lot more here relative to our wealth. Our lifestyle will suffer and the populists really will be growling about Globalization then, once we are no longer top dog. Britain lost their place years ago, and their people suffered also during the switchover to US dominance. This time, I fear it will be far worse, though there is little we can do about it except work harder for less and let go of our superpower role...which in some ways may not be all bad. We can spend our money here at home instead of propping up all of our bases globally....only problem is that other nations will reap the benefits of the global trade monopoly we once enjoyed. And it seems Trump isnt helping.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 07-29-2018 7:13 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 07-29-2018 10:04 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 24 of 38 (837241)
07-29-2018 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
07-29-2018 9:54 AM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
Phat writes:

If our dollar loses its global reserve currency status, things will cost a lot more here relative to our wealth. Our lifestyle will suffer and the populists really will be growling about Globalization then, once we are no longer top dog.

LOL

Sorry but the value of a dollar will still vary relative to other currencies regardless of whether the US dollar is the global reserve currency or not.

Phat writes:

It explains how China is poised to dominate globally in the tech (information/smartphone/financial business.)

The answer to that is to educate our population so that we can be competitive with China and India and the EU and Brazil and the rest of the world. Retreating into a fantasy based society instead of a reality based society ain't gonna help.

When we vacate a position in the world stage by opting out of treaties and global commerce organizations we simply open a door for China and India and Brazil and Indonesia and the Eu and the rest of the world to enter.

What happens when a baseball team shows up with only eight players?

What happens when a team does not even show up for a game?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 07-29-2018 9:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 07-29-2018 1:24 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11624
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 25 of 38 (837254)
07-29-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
07-29-2018 10:04 AM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
This from Wikipedia:
quote:
People who live in a country that issues a reserve currency can purchase imports and borrow across borders more cheaply than people in other nations because they do not need to exchange their currency to do so.

By the end of the 20th century, the United States dollar was considered the world's most dominant reserve currency.[1] The world's need for dollars has allowed the United States government as well as Americans to borrow at lower costs, granting them an advantage in excess of $100 billion per year.


If our economy unravels and the rest of the world abandons us as the chief reserve currency, it will cost more to borrow! That's what I am saying...this may end up being a significant effect felt here domestically.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 07-29-2018 10:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-29-2018 1:50 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 26 of 38 (837255)
07-29-2018 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
07-29-2018 1:24 PM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
Phat writes:

If our economy unravels and the rest of the world abandons us as the chief reserve currency, it will cost more to borrow! That's what I am saying...this may end up being a significant effect felt here domestically.

Sheesh.

Think Phat.

If we place tariffs on products from overseas will they cost more when bought here?

If the holders of current Treasury Bonds sell their bonds will we have to increase the interest rate on new Treasury Bonds to make them worth anyone buying them?

Regardless of whether the dollar remains the Reserve Currency the issues you fear can happen.

And yes. It's increasingly likely that the US remains a significant factor in world commerce if we keep pissing off those other trading spheres.

The EU does not need America if we are not committed to defense of Europe and a valid stable (important word), dependable (important word), reliable (important word) partner.

China does not need America if we are not committed to defense of Europe and a valid stable (important word), dependable (important word), reliable (important word) partner.

India does not need America if we are not committed to defense of Europe and a valid stable (important word), dependable (important word), reliable (important word) partner.

The rest of the world does not need America if we are not committed to defense of Europe and a valid stable (important word), dependable (important word), reliable (important word) partner.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 07-29-2018 1:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 27 of 38 (837257)
07-29-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
07-29-2018 6:03 AM


Re: The Bill Gets Paid
Phat writes:

But how do we keep China from taking over everything??


"Take over" in what way? By investing in everything? In Canada, we've had Americans investing in everything since always. We're used to it. What difference would it make if it was China instead?

And your President still thinks we're taking advantage of you, so it doesn't seem to have hurt us too badly. I can't wait to see China's President-for-life complaining that Canada takes advantage of China.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 07-29-2018 6:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 28 of 38 (837355)
07-30-2018 7:28 PM


Speaking of Treasury Bonds...
Speaking of Treasury Bonds... since November 2017 Russia has dumped over 80% of the US Treasury bonds that it held. That was far less than the over a trillion dollars in Treasury Bonds held by China but in November 2017 (what happened then? ) Russia held over 105 billion dollars in US Treasuries but by May 2018 that figure was down to less than 15 billion dollars in US Treasury Bonds.

Russia is a small player when it comes to US Treasury Bonds but it is interesting that Russia decided that there were safer more profitable and productive places to invest than US Treasury Bonds.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 10:53 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11624
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 29 of 38 (837657)
08-07-2018 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
07-30-2018 7:28 PM


Re: Speaking of Treasury Bonds...and Gold
Note that Gold is going steadily up and that China buys a lot of it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 07-30-2018 7:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 08-07-2018 11:07 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 30 of 38 (837665)
08-07-2018 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
08-07-2018 10:53 AM


Re: Speaking of Treasury Bonds...and Gold
LOL

Too funny.

Where is gold used?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 10:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 08-07-2018 11:09 AM jar has responded

  
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