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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 76 of 100 (839845)
09-17-2018 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by nwr
09-17-2018 12:09 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
nwr writes:

There can be degrees of belief.

If you believe a just a little tiny bit you're not agnostic, you're still a believer.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by nwr, posted 09-17-2018 12:09 AM nwr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 8:19 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(5)
Message 77 of 100 (839858)
09-17-2018 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
09-17-2018 2:50 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Tangle writes:

nwr writes:

There can be degrees of belief.

If you believe a just a little tiny bit you're not agnostic, you're still a believer.

You're being awfully strict for no good reason that I can see. If someone really doesn't feel there's much ground for belief but doesn't want to give up on it completely so holds on to the possibility, I think that could fairly be described as agnosticism: he's saying he doesn't know, can't prove it one way or the other, won't commit to all-out atheism but also not to religion either.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2018 9:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 78 of 100 (839860)
09-17-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
09-17-2018 8:19 AM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Faith writes:

You're being awfully strict for no good reason that I can see. If someone really doesn't feel there's much ground for belief but doesn't want to give up on it completely so holds on to the possibility, I think that could fairly be described as agnosticism: he's saying he doesn't know, can't prove it one way or the other, won't commit to all-out atheism but also not to religion either.

You don't commit to atheism, you just don't believe in god.

If you're anything other than an someone who doesn't believe in god, then you're someone that does; you're a theist of some kind. It's definitional.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 8:19 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 79 of 100 (839862)
09-17-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
09-16-2018 4:40 PM


Re: What differences between Christianity and Atheism
Phat writes:

Do you think that belief in God interferes with reality?
Must it or merely can it?


It certainly can. For many people it seems like an escape from reality. Look at the little old lady who believed that God would save her from the flood - so fervently that she ignored the reality of the salvation that was available. For others, there seems to be a downright avoidance of reality. Look at Faith, who viciously denies reality in favour of her spoon-fed interpretation of the Bible.

Phat writes:

I think that for me, when I embraced belief it became subjectively real.


There's no such thing as subjectively real.

Phat writes:

Does unevidenced belief equate to wishful thinking?


1. All belief is unevidenced. If there was evidence, it wouldn't be belief.
2. Belief can be based on wishful thinking, or on ignorance of the evidence that does exist, or it can just be a temporary filler for areas where there isn't enough evidence.

Phat writes:

Is subjective evidence allowable as evidence in the court of public opinion?


1. There's no such thing as subjective evidence.
2. Evidence has nothing to do with the court of public opinion.

Evidence, by definition, must be evident. A bullet hole in a body is evident to everybody. The interpretation of the evidence may be subject to some differences of opinion.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 09-16-2018 4:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 09-17-2018 2:38 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 100 (839870)
09-17-2018 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by ringo
09-17-2018 11:49 AM


Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
There's no such thing as subjectively real.
Which explains why you never became born again...your insistence on objective evidence blinded you to allowing change. Perhaps you never wanted to let go of your control...and I can see an argument that supports your view. If everyone else drinks the kool-aid, ringo surely won't. You are honest with yourself and I can't fault you for that...but understand that when I did let go of my rational mind, I gained inner peace.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by ringo, posted 09-17-2018 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Diomedes, posted 09-17-2018 3:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 82 by Stile, posted 09-17-2018 3:37 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2018 3:45 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 88 by ringo, posted 09-18-2018 12:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 726
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 81 of 100 (839871)
09-17-2018 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
09-17-2018 2:38 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
your insistence on objective evidence blinded you to allowing change

This was brought up before Phat. But to reiterate, you cannot chastise people for insisting on objective evidence. As indicated, anything that is fact or data based is objective while anything that is feeling or emotion based would be subjective. But only one can be effectively used as evidence. If you were about to have a critical operation performed by a surgeon, would you want that individual to utilize objective or subjective methods?

but understand that when I did let go of my rational mind, I gained inner peace

Then the stance here is that you are effectively asking people to be irrational. That is essentially the opposite of rational. Honestly, does that make sense to you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 09-17-2018 2:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3241
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 82 of 100 (839872)
09-17-2018 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
09-17-2018 2:38 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Phat writes:

I did let go of my rational mind, I gained inner peace.

That makes a lot of sense.
You are the sole owner and highest authority on your personal claims about your own experiences in this way.

Phat writes:

Ringo writes:

There's no such thing as subjectively real.


Which explains why you never became born again...

That does not make much sense
Try not to guess other people's motivations/abilities... you'll be wrong much more often than you'll be right.
Just because you know how you feel doesn't mean you have any inkling at all on how someone else feels (or thinks).

Do you think "God" is the only place to go when someone "lets go of their rational mind?"
God, and even any/all religions, are only one small section of letting your mind roam freely.

Although certain aspects of theism will require a leaning towards subjectivity over objectivity... this shouldn't confuse you into thinking that subjectivity is equivalent to theism.

There are many things within religions that are objective and rational (eg. meeting together at least once a week builds a sense of community).
There are many subjective things that have nothing to do with religion at all (eg. Miami Dolphins are the best football team).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 09-17-2018 2:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 83 of 100 (839873)
09-17-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
09-17-2018 2:38 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Phat writes:

but understand that when I did let go of my rational mind, I gained inner peace.

You've never had a rational mind Phat. Trust me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 09-17-2018 2:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 4:38 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 84 of 100 (839881)
09-17-2018 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
09-17-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
That's an awfully underhanded remark, Tangle, and totally false anyway.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2018 3:45 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2018 6:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 85 of 100 (839892)
09-17-2018 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
09-17-2018 4:38 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Phat writes:

That's an awfully underhanded remark, Tangle, and totally false anyway.

Faith, Phat's every post points to his total lack of understanding of what 'rational' actually is.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 09-17-2018 4:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 6:17 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 86 of 100 (839894)
09-18-2018 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tangle
09-17-2018 6:11 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Phat is no more irrational than you or anyone else here. He says some things I consider to be pretty confused at times but that doesn't mean he himself is irrational.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2018 6:11 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 9:02 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(3)
Message 87 of 100 (839896)
09-18-2018 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
09-18-2018 6:17 AM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
You're not the best judge of what is rational and what isn't Faith.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 6:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 2:20 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 88 of 100 (839907)
09-18-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
09-17-2018 2:38 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
Phat writes:

Which explains why you never became born again...


Stop it. I was as "born again" as you ever were.

Phat writes:

...your insistence on objective evidence blinded you to allowing change.


What? It's objective evidence that motivates change. If all we had to do was appease the gods, we'd still be sitting in caves eating raw mammoth. We used objective evidence, not faith, to make life better.

Phat writes:

Perhaps you never wanted to let go of your control...


On the contrary, I'm willing to take control - and responsibility - instead of relying on an alien overlord.

Phat writes:

...but understand that when I did let go of my rational mind, I gained inner peace.


So how come the "inner peace" isn't reflected in outer peace?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 09-17-2018 2:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 89 of 100 (839913)
09-18-2018 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Tangle
09-18-2018 9:02 AM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
You're not the best judge of what is rational and what isn't Faith.

I bet I'd pass an objective test of rationality higher than most here. But if it's designed just to debunk religious belief, which is all you mean anyway, that's something else.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 9:02 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 09-18-2018 3:43 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6183
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 90 of 100 (839916)
09-18-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
09-18-2018 2:20 PM


Re: Holding On To Rationality At All Costs
I'll take that bet. How much?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 2:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 09-18-2018 3:58 PM Tangle has responded

  
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