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Author Topic:   The Atheist Experience
Phat
Member
Posts: 11132
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1 of 95 (839214)
09-05-2018 11:46 AM


Recently, as reflected in links within a few of my posts, I have been watching The Atheist Experience television broadcast on YouTube and also watching some of the debates between the atheists and the Christian apologists and philosophers. I want this topic to focus on logic, reason, reality, and definition of arguments based on words.

I'm going to start out by quoting a few of the comments which I read following this hour-long debate on YouTube titled Matt Dillahunty, Chris DiCarlo vs Mike Horner, P Chamberlain - Does God Exist - 2012. This is a compilation of many comments regarding the first quote:

quote:

  • Atheism isn't a claim, it's a refute of many claims
  • Actually, it's rejection - not refutation. An atheist doesn't have to refute any god claims, just reject them all.
  • I hate to nitpick, but atheism is a rejection of the claims not a refutation of them.
  • It can be both. Depends on that person's stance and whether or not he's able to defend a burden of proof properly. It's kinda hard to refute and defend something that's a negative/unfalsifiable. Hence atheism is really just a lack of belief at it's core. How much further it's taken after that is up to the person.
  • Atheism is simply A LACK OF BELIEF. One doesn't need evidence to not believe something. Just the opposite in fact. One needs evidence TO believe something. (at least in order to be justified in that belief) The default position is nonbelief until evidence is provided, rather than be irrational and gullible by believing everything until given reason NOT to believe it- which is known as faith. Got it now ? Good. Glad I could be the one to educate you. Good luck and goodbye.

    And perhaps the funniest quote:

  • Philosophers talk about stuff
    Scientists DO stuff
    Theists make up stuff
  • Has anyone watched this show? Comments??


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Replies to this message:
     Message 2 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 11:55 AM Phat has responded
     Message 3 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2018 11:58 AM Phat has responded
     Message 4 by Diomedes, posted 09-10-2018 11:04 AM Phat has responded
     Message 18 by Taq, posted 09-10-2018 4:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15119
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 2 of 95 (839215)
    09-05-2018 11:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    09-05-2018 11:46 AM


    Phat writes:

    Has anyone watched this show?


    I suspect that most atheists are not as interested in atheism as you are.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 11:46 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 1:05 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6080
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 1.9


    (5)
    Message 3 of 95 (839216)
    09-05-2018 11:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    09-05-2018 11:46 AM


    Not seen the show but all that stuff has been done to death many times here already.

    It's very simple, if someone makes a claim about something they have to show why it's true. Otherwise it can be rejected out of hand.

    If the claim is mundane it can be accepted without testing. 'There's a blue chair in my bedroom' can be accepted because it's not exceptional and you trust the source. Before you check it out yourself, you can believe it. After you check you know it.

    'There's a unicorn in my bedroom' requires absolute proof. It can't be accepted without objective confirmation. Without proof it must be rejected.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 11:46 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 1:12 PM Tangle has responded

      
    Diomedes
    Member
    Posts: 711
    From: Central Florida, USA
    Joined: 09-13-2013
    Member Rating: 3.5


    Message 4 of 95 (839548)
    09-10-2018 11:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    09-05-2018 11:46 AM


    Recently, as reflected in links within a few of my posts, I have been watching The Atheist Experience television broadcast on YouTube and also watching some of the debates between the atheists and the Christian apologists and philosophers.

    Has anyone watched this show? Comments??

    That show has been around since the late 90s and became quite popular around the time that Richard Dawkins was voicing his objections towards teaching creationism alongside evolution during the Bush Presidency.

    The one member of the Atheist Experience group that has gained the most popularity is Matt Dillahunty. His background is he was actually raised in a Baptist household and he was studying to be a baptist priest. But as he started researching, he became aware of a lot of the inconsistencies and outright falsehoods that were being spread as part of Christian doctrine. So he eventually became a vocal member of the atheist community.

    He has his own channel on Youtube if you want to check it out:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/SansDeity

    Also, if you are interested, one of the more interesting debates that Matt Dillahunty participated in was the one where he debated Matt Slick, a known Christian philosopher. The debate is also available and I encourage anyone to view it. It is handled respectfully and professionally and I applaud both Matt's for how it was handled. That debate is here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKlycI9ZKsY


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 09-05-2018 11:46 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 12:58 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 5 of 95 (839553)
    09-10-2018 12:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Diomedes
    09-10-2018 11:04 AM


    The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Diomedes writes:

    Also, if you are interested, one of the more interesting debates that Matt Dillahunty participated in was the one where he debated Matt Slick, a known Christian philosopher. The debate is also available and I encourage anyone to view it. It is handled respectfully and professionally and I applaud both Matt's for how it was handled.

    Is Secular Humanism superior to Christianity?

    Thanks for introducing me to that video! It was certainly an interesting debate and I will have to watch it again in order to fully understand and grasp the arguments. The audience participation was nice also! To his credit, Slick holds his own though he also brags a bit about his credentials..While Dillahunty is to be respected for his logic and presentation. Tentatively I have concluded that we humans are products of our life experiences. In my belief, God has surely foreknown that humans would be divisive and that not everyone would someday magically agree on a worldview. The evidence is in Christianity itself and on how there are so many denominations...nevermind Islam vs Christianity or Christianity vs Secular Humanism or Believer vs Atheist. The point is that there is and likely always will be different beliefs. Personally, I believe that knowing God through Jesus Christ is a worthy goal. My opponents rightly challenge me to explain how this is possible and why it is necessary for their particular subgroup. This is the heart of the issue: The reason people are in their subgroups is that they feel accepted and respected within that particular group!

    I'm also reading some of the comments below the video itself. I am studying other arguments by other humans as a key to forming my own conclusions on the verdict if in fact there even is one and needs to be one. Right now I am considering between two beliefs:

  • That Knowing God and Jesus is necessary
    or
  • That it is irrelevant whether or not I know and believe that Jesus Christ died to pay for my sins once and for all.

    Mind you I have already committed to the first premise. I believe that Jesus is alive this moment, is aware of our online conversations as well as a quadrillion other events and that through knowing Him I am being transformed and am willfully working as well to become a better person.

    And I'm not through with you yet, Tangle...though you seem to have encapsulated the debate briefly, the very fact that you hang around mandates that I continue to question you.

    Edited by Phat, : Title


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Diomedes, posted 09-10-2018 11:04 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:05 PM Phat has responded

      
  • ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15119
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    (1)
    Message 6 of 95 (839556)
    09-10-2018 1:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
    09-10-2018 12:58 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Phat writes:

    Is Secular Humanism superior to Christianity?


    Is a hammer superior to an apple? Are they interchangeable?

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 12:58 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 1:07 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 7 of 95 (839557)
    09-10-2018 1:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 2 by ringo
    09-05-2018 11:55 AM


    Are Atheists Not Interested?
    ringo writes:

    I suspect that most atheists are not as interested in atheism as you are.

    And yet you will need an assistant to deal with me, mister! I'm not through with you yet either! Though you annoy me a bit by refusing to watch my videos and insisting that I present my arguments in written form---it takes more effort yet allows me to improve upon them in the process. I guess I can't get anyone to do my legwork for me---not even Jesus!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by ringo, posted 09-05-2018 11:55 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 8 of 95 (839558)
    09-10-2018 1:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
    09-10-2018 1:05 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Nope. One eats an apple or bakes a pie with it or splits it with an arrow. maybe they should have thrown it at the snake to shoo that critter away!

    Hammers are good for hard objects. Maybe Occam should have used a hammer rather than a razor.

    It is a good debate, though. Watch a video once in a while....unless you think you already know the arguments.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:05 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:15 PM Phat has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 9 of 95 (839560)
    09-10-2018 1:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
    09-05-2018 11:58 AM


    In Brief
    Tangle writes:

    Without proof it must be rejected.

    Thats your problem. You reject things that you determine that you don't need. You may stand at the altar waiting forever for evidence. My question is why must we reject the premise? This isnt a simple logic or science problem.

    Its emotional and personal....but maybe I'm the only one desiring marriage...you already have your squeeze!


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2018 11:58 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2018 3:12 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15119
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 10 of 95 (839561)
    09-10-2018 1:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
    09-10-2018 1:07 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Phat writes:

    Watch a video once in a while....


    I'm at the Public Library.

    Phat writes:

    One eats an apple or bakes a pie with it or splits it with an arrow. maybe they should have thrown it at the snake to shoo that critter away!
    Hammers are good for hard objects. Maybe Occam should have used a hammer rather than a razor.


    So you missed the point completely.

    Is Secular Humanism superior to Christianity? How can you even compare them?


    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 1:07 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 1:26 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 11 of 95 (839562)
    09-10-2018 1:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
    09-10-2018 1:15 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Once I watch the debate a few more times I may finally form an opinion or belief with which to answer your question.

    Tentatively I think that Christianity is superior in that we gain a relationship.

    Though one could argue that with secular humanism you gain many relationships.

    Out Of Many, One.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:15 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 15119
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 12 of 95 (839565)
    09-10-2018 1:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
    09-10-2018 1:26 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    Phat writes:

    Tentatively I think that Christianity is superior in that we gain a relationship.


    I'm not asking which is superior. I'm asking how you can even make a comparison. Like an apple and a hammer, are they used for the same purpose? If you don't have one, can you substitute the other?

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 1:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by caffeine, posted 09-10-2018 2:39 PM ringo has responded
     Message 14 by Diomedes, posted 09-10-2018 2:53 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    caffeine
    Member
    Posts: 1473
    From: Prague, Czech Republic
    Joined: 10-22-2008
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 13 of 95 (839566)
    09-10-2018 2:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
    09-10-2018 1:59 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    I'm not asking which is superior. I'm asking how you can even make a comparison. Like an apple and a hammer, are they used for the same purpose? If you don't have one, can you substitute the other?

    Yes, isn't that exactly Secular Humanism is? It's a Christianity substitute for ex-Christians who miss Christianity.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:59 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by ringo, posted 09-14-2018 11:40 AM caffeine has not yet responded

      
    Diomedes
    Member
    Posts: 711
    From: Central Florida, USA
    Joined: 09-13-2013
    Member Rating: 3.5


    Message 14 of 95 (839568)
    09-10-2018 2:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
    09-10-2018 1:59 PM


    Re: The Discussion is not as simple as Tangle concludes
    I'm not asking which is superior. I'm asking how you can even make a comparison.

    Phat is only making the comparison because that was the actual title of the debate link I provided. Whether they are worthy of comparison, hard to say. But Dillahunty and Slick seemed to think so. Enough that they did a two hour debate on the topic.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by ringo, posted 09-10-2018 1:59 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 6080
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 1.9


    (1)
    Message 15 of 95 (839569)
    09-10-2018 3:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
    09-10-2018 1:12 PM


    Re: In Brief
    Phat writes:

    Thats your problem.

    I don't have a problem. I'm not agonising over this stuff, that'll be you.

    You reject things that you determine that you don't need.

    Oh Phat, what is it that makes you so dumb about this stuff? It doesn't matter how often this is explained you have to twist it into something you want to believe that has nothing to do with how it actually is.

    I'm not rejecting stuff I don't need, it's that the stuff you believe in is utterly daft. Like you reject Father Christmas or Zeus. You seem to need to believe something, this is something. If you'd been born in Israel or Iraq you'd believe in something else.

    You may stand at the altar waiting forever for evidence.

    And what would be the problem with that?

    My question is why must we reject the premise?

    Because it isn't proven and the evidence is against it.

    This isnt a simple logic or science problem.

    Then why are you talking of premises?

    Its emotional and personal....but maybe I'm the only one desiring marriage...you already have your squeeze!

    You said it. You want all this garbage to be true no matter what, so you'll make it true for you.

    I don't have a 'squeeze', not believing in something is not a replacement for belief. Think of it like you not believing in Vishnu.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 1:12 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by Phat, posted 09-10-2018 3:22 PM Tangle has responded

      
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