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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Phat
Member
Posts: 10509
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 151 of 230 (399187)
05-04-2007 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by truthlover
05-03-2007 4:12 PM


Common Union
truthlover writes:

For ancient Christianity (for equinox' sake: the Pre-Nicene, "catholic" fathers and the churches they represent) truth resided in the church/churches, not in individuals.

So in other words, truth (if it can be found at all) is found in a communion rather than an individual. The critics would say that whole groups of people (churches) could also be wrong, however. My only response would be: How do the critics define truth?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by truthlover, posted 05-03-2007 4:12 PM truthlover has responded

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2327 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 152 of 230 (399188)
05-04-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
05-04-2007 11:25 AM


Re: Is the Truth out there or in here?
quote:
Settling on an answer to a question without all the facts is a viable option when the alternative is uncertainty. For you, uncertainty is a challenge since you still have a goal. (Finding the truth)

But we will never find The Truth, Phat.

None of us.

Nobody can really Know.

Without uncertainty, there can be no learning nor growth.

That is because once you are 100% certain of anything, you are no longer open to new and potentially better information.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 11:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 11:59 AM nator has responded
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10509
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 153 of 230 (399194)
05-04-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by nator
05-04-2007 11:46 AM


Re: Is the Truth out there or in here?
Nator writes:

But we will never find The Truth, Phat.

None of us.

Could it be possible that the truth would or could find us? (or is that a nonsensical response, in your belief? )
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by nator, posted 05-04-2007 11:46 AM nator has responded

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 154 of 230 (399198)
05-04-2007 12:21 PM


Testosterone—the evil molecule
Wait! Wait! I got it. Evil can be reduced to a single molecule—testosterone. No other molecule in nature accounts for so many evils in human history or bloody ordeals amongst the animals to prove their masculinity and defeat their rivals for the sake of fucking rights. Look at the statistics: Who causes most of the traffic accidents? Who commits most of the crimes? Who dips their wicks with impunity and lets abortion kill off their seedlings? Who rapes little babies? Who shoots students in their classrooms? It's those creeps who carry around sacs of testosterone-production equipment who are the evil ones. Look at the Governator, or Lyle Alzado, or Barry Bonds—they're all famous for taking massive doses of evil. I think its time for the chemical heads of this forum to stand up like men and single out this evil molecule for its sociopathic behavior.

Maybe the carriers of this molcule should be licensed for concealing such an evil protein. Show me another molecule that accounts for so much trouble.

MHOIAW

—HM

Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Content Hidden


Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10509
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 155 of 230 (399206)
05-04-2007 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Fosdick
05-04-2007 12:21 PM


Re: Testosterone—the evil molecule
I was considering scolding you for an off topic post in my topic but then I realized that I would be abusing my testosterone in my angry outburst..so I'm letting you off the hook!

Are you a spiritual person? What are your current spiritual beliefs?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Fosdick, posted 05-04-2007 12:21 PM Fosdick has responded

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 176 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 156 of 230 (399214)
05-04-2007 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by iceage
05-02-2007 8:06 PM


Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
what do you have to say for those who were ardent born again, spirit filled, Christians that converted to another religion or became agnostic. Those exist in probably equal numbers. That question goes both ways.

Which is exactly my point. You said that geography plays a part in who knows God and who doesn't. But there are plenty of cases that defy convention. Secondly, Jesus was very clear in the Parable of the Sower that not everyone sticks to the Word-- that if they do, they eventually fall away from it.

The data shows overwhelming that there is a large correlation between adopted religion to surrounding culture (this incidentally implies that residency in hell depends significantly on geography).

A common misconception. Eternal separation is not reserved for those who don't know about God. We aren't being judged on what we don't know. We are being judged on what do know, but reject it anyway.

There are converts from one to another, sure, but this only proves that perhaps they have the ability to delude themselves in more than one way.

The point here, iceage, is that you are questioning the experiences of others, something that cannot be done empirically. This is tantamount to calling, Phat and I, delusional. While you are more than welcome to your opinion, it is not done pragmatically. Its almost like me talking about how I like the taste of Ostrich meat. I have tried it and enjoyed it, whereas you haven't. I then go to describe the flavor and the consistency. You then argue with me, but you have no firsthand experience. Why argue with me on that point?

quote:
But really, there is only one of three things to choose from. Either I have met God whereas others haven't, I have not met God, but others have and I am deluding myself, or no one has met God because He is a figment of the imaginations of millions upon millions of people over centuries of human history.

# Maybe many people have "met" God, but he is not quite as exclusive as some "scriptures" suggest and God interacts with people however they envision them.

That wouldn't change who God is, though. If you'll notice from scripture, Jesus, for instance, always came to people in the context of their lives. His parables correlated with what his audience would understand because he used in context.

# Maybe no one has "met" God, not because God doesn't exist, but because God has chosen not to reveal Gods true reality for whatever reason.

Then how could anyone even surmise of God if there was not something that first precipitated the belief in the first place? This is what I ask the Deists. They believe in God, but not in God revealing Himself through design, not special revelation, and not in the veracity of scripture. Where then can God be known?

# Maybe many people have a real experience of "meeting" God but they are really meeting with a deceiving evil spirit whose intent is to mislead.

Deceiving them to lift the downtrodden, to treat each other with love, to teach people about moral imperatives? That hardly sounds demonic. But, then again, the Scriptures do say that they come to us masquerading as children of light. The only way to go around the message itself is to compromise the position of the message. But that is why Jesus instructed not to go beyond what is written. That invariably brings us back to why we should follow the Word in the first place.

# Maybe "meeting" God has a physical neurological basis.

What do you mean?


"God is like the sun. You can't look at it. But without it you can't look at anything else." -G.K. Chesterton
This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by iceage, posted 05-02-2007 8:06 PM iceage has responded

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3185 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 157 of 230 (399218)
05-04-2007 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Phat
05-04-2007 12:57 PM


Are you a spiritual person?
Phat asks:

Are you a spiritual person? What are your current spiritual beliefs?

No, since you asked, I am not a spiritual person—not as you might define one. I am an untheist; I believe it doesn't matter if there is or isn't a God. I also believe that love and hate are natural things, but that goodness and evil are not. And I believe in karma: 'What goes around comes around.' And, finally, I believe another phrase for 'God In Heaven' is 'Fear Of Death.'

But if you asked me what I believe God's value is in the historically economic sense, I would say it ranks high even than the oldest profession.

—HM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 12:57 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10509
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 158 of 230 (399236)
05-04-2007 3:15 PM


Reaffirmation Of Dogma
My original focus of this topic was to provide a roundtable discussion only with people who believed the way I do or very similarly. My frustration in the past had been that I never got a chance to lay out my beliefs for myself or others to understand.

After losing my fear of opening the topic up a little bit, I saw that it became a bit of a runaway smorgasbord of opinions. While this is a good thing, and while I myself found that I learn more through discussions with those who believe differently than I was taught versus those who believe the same or nearly the same as I do, I thought it wise to issue a challenge in order to further encourage controversy regarding traditional conservative protestant beliefs in the United States.

I had a book in my bookshelf that I have never read. Christianity 101: Your guide to eight basic Christian beliefs The author is Gilbert Bilezikian (Th.D., Boston University) who is a professor emeritus of Wheaton College. (click on the "look inside this book" link at Amazon!)

I suppose that I should read the book before completing this post, but I am going to attempt to skim enough of it to present Bilezikians opinions so has to provide fodder for further debate within my topic.
He is called "Dr.B" by his students and friends, and is respected greatly within the community of like-minded believers. I don't attempt to defend this mans integrity...that is reserved for people who actually know him....but I trust that I have picked a source that speaks in as educated and eloquent of fashion as the conservative Protestants can muster.

As our discussion continues, and as I read Dr.B's book, I will be using quotes that I find which jump out at me as relevant ideas that ring true with my belief.

My belief is evolving, to be sure...and it has been pointed out to me that I will usually cling to ideas which I may find comforting whether or not they can be proven to hold any substance.

Rather than quote the book, I thought that I would present the basic table of contents and allow anyone who is interested to ask me questions which I will attempt to relay through the lens of the author.

Here is the eight doctrines covered in the book:

  • The Bible As God's Revelation
  • The Doctrine Of God
  • The Doctrine Of Christ
  • The Doctrine Of The Holy Spirit
  • The Doctrine Of Human Beings
  • The Doctrine Of Salvation
  • The Doctrine Of The Church
  • The Doctrine Of The End Times

    This is about as close to conservative Protestantism as you can get. We have discussed, dismissed, and debated these topics before, but it will be interesting to see what this man actually has to say about each of them and his reasoning behind what he says.

    BTW when any of you see me quote Dr.B., this is the guy I am quoting.


    Replies to this message:
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  • Equinox
    Member (Idle past 2827 days)
    Posts: 329
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 08-18-2006


    Message 159 of 230 (399251)
    05-04-2007 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 146 by truthlover
    05-03-2007 4:06 PM


    Tertullian was the same. His _Prescription Against Heretics_ argues that the "heretics" have no right even to use the Scriptures. They belong to the catholic (PO) churches.

    That he does. He claims that heretics are not to be even engaged in debate over the scriptures due the reason you say. (of course right after that he goes on for page after page doing what he says not to do - engaging a discussion showing how the scriptures back up his position).

    You have a point, and I don't disagree. The early PO church (and some non - PO as well) certainly did lean heavily on apostolic succession at least as much as on being backed by the ideas of scripture (at least 2nd cent and later - the very earliest scriptures show the opposite - the the early Christians of all stripes argued about things - see many of the pauline letters and letters forged in paul's name).

    You are also certainly correct that the protestants denied apostolic succession and relied heavily on scripture. Maybe it is a method that comes and goes over history as the circumstances warrant?

    Have a fun weekend-

    Equinox

    Edited by Equinox, : typo


    This message is a reply to:
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    Equinox
    Member (Idle past 2827 days)
    Posts: 329
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 08-18-2006


    Message 160 of 230 (399253)
    05-04-2007 4:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 159 by Equinox
    05-04-2007 4:34 PM


    Why?
    Phat wrote:
    ask me questions which I will attempt to relay through the lens of the author.

    Why would you want to? I mean, why not just say what you think,instead of practicing parroting protestant preachers points?

    On one hand, I appreciate your honesty in telling us that that is what you'll be doing (instead of doing it secretly), but I guess I don't get why the lens of someone else is desired.

    Maybe the exercise of practicing this may help convince you of the arguments you want to be convinced of? Or did I miss the reason?

    Have a good weekend, I'll be back on monday-

    -Equinox


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    Fosdick 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3185 days)
    Posts: 1793
    From: Upper Slobovia
    Joined: 12-11-2006


    Message 161 of 230 (399286)
    05-04-2007 7:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 158 by Phat
    05-04-2007 3:15 PM


    Re: Reaffirmation Of Dogma
    Phat said:

    My belief is evolving, to be sure...and it has been pointed out to me that I will usually cling to ideas which I may find comforting whether or not they can be proven to hold any substance.

    A very honest statement. Who doesn't do this to one degree or another? One measure of difference amongst the EvC posters is how much comforting they need to get to the substance.

    —HM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 3:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    nator
    Member (Idle past 2327 days)
    Posts: 12961
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 162 of 230 (399301)
    05-04-2007 9:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by Phat
    05-04-2007 11:59 AM


    Re: Is the Truth out there or in here?
    quote:
    Could it be possible that the truth would or could find us? (or is that a nonsensical response, in your belief?)

    How would you know if you had the whole truth?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 153 by Phat, posted 05-04-2007 11:59 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    sidelined 
    Inactive Suspended Member


    Message 163 of 230 (399311)
    05-04-2007 10:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 154 by Fosdick
    05-04-2007 12:21 PM


    Re: Testosterone—the evil molecule
    Hoot Man

    Show me another molecule that accounts for so much trouble.

    Easy. Estrogen. Think on it.

    Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Content Hidden


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 154 by Fosdick, posted 05-04-2007 12:21 PM Fosdick has responded

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    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3534 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 164 of 230 (399322)
    05-05-2007 12:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 154 by Fosdick
    05-04-2007 12:21 PM


    Re: Testosterone—the evil molecule
    Why did you not participate in the 'does evil exist' thread?

    It would have been nice to have someone who can actually think clearly. Out of the crowd of participants only two were conscious. IMHO...

    (and Phat, I owe you one for that STR piece. The food critics may not get it, but you saved my bacon. Thanks!)

    Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Content Hidden


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    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3600 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 165 of 230 (399331)
    05-05-2007 1:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 156 by Hyroglyphx
    05-04-2007 1:25 PM


    Re: Ignorance presupposes perfect knowledge
    First I apologize for the description "delusional" it was inappropriate in civil discussion.

    Now on with the show....

    iceage writes:

    what do you have to say for those who were ardent born again, spirit filled, Christians that converted to another religion or became agnostic. Those exist in probably equal numbers. That question goes both ways.

    NJ writes:

    Which is exactly my point.

    What point? Let me retrace the conversation.

    NJ writes:

    ...those intimate and precious few moments with God where he is in communion with God. That's the kind of meeting that erases all doubt.

    Equinox writes:

    Erases all doubt in what? That a god of some kind exists? That Brahma exists? .... millions of people have had encounters with God, including myself.

    NJ writes:

    And what do you have to say for those that weren't raised with God, but some other notion of god? There are innumerable converts from other religions that have met HaShem. What about them? Ravi Zacharias grew up in India, heir to a caste of Hindu priests. And yet on a bed of suicide, knowing nothing of Christ, did he come to meet him.

    So I thought, maybe incorrectly, that you were making the claim that since "innumerable converts from other religions" is some form of confirmation of your religion beliefs.

    I am just stating the obvious... there are converts each way, conversion from a different religion to Christianity does not validate Christianity.

    NJ writes:

    You said that geography plays a part in who knows God and who doesn't. But there are plenty of cases that defy convention.

    You are ignoring reality, there is maybe a fractional percentage - apostasy is very rare.

    But as an aside seems to me like a hell of way to run a universe where a sentient being is going to suffer eternal damnation and punishment, by the benevolent creator, just because they were born on the wrong continent or into the wrong family.

    If conversion is your metric of performance though, consider Islam as the fastest growing religion today - and some Christians do convert very sincerely.

    NJ writes:

    But really, there is only one of three things to choose from

    Nope sorry - false dichotomy.

    iceage writes:

    Maybe many people have "met" God, but he is not quite as exclusive as some "scriptures" suggest and God interacts with people however they envision them.

    NJ writes:

    That wouldn't change who God is, though. If you'll notice from scripture, Jesus, for instance, always came to people in the context of their lives. His parables correlated with what his audience would understand because he used in context.

    Yes, but correct me if I am wrong, your theology requires salvation through Jesus *only*. There are many people, as Equinox pointed out, that have religious experiences that are aligned with their beliefs systems which exclude Jesus.

    Now for my own false dichotomy.

    If you believe your religious experience confirms the validity of your Christian view (and removes all doubt) and if your religion theology is exclusive as your good book clearly says, then either:

  • You have to discount the religious experiences of other people that have a different religious view (that even maybe anti-Christian), as counterfeit.

    or

  • Conventional Christian theology is wrong (or popularly interpreted wrong).

    or

  • ????

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


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