What led you to God?

Well, your intention was to promote how wonderful God is and how great it is to believe in Jesus the Christ. According to you “ The setting was perfect for me to find a reason to love the God that I see ,” yes, the setting was perfect to believe in fluffy Jesus, and it is easy to experience this when you are sitting in an air-conditioned room looking out the window at a nice sunny, idyllic scene, knowing that it is almost lunchtime and there's a lovely meal with your name on it in the canteen. But, since you see fluffy Jesus in the nice areas of life, why don't you give Him credit for creating cancer, AIDS, and every other cruel illness that He created? Do you still see a wonderful Jesus when you look at a starving child, or are you selective? Not at all, just general facts gathered by years of experience. So, your claim is nothing more than a story about a Chinese curse! So you do not have anything worthwhile to suggest that your claim has any historical foundation? Why are you so naive? You have missed the point. Yes, these are terrible unfortunate lives, but why are they terrible and unfortunate? Why is God such an incompetent buffoon? Also, no one knows where they will rest, people believe all sorts of wonderful things about the afterliife, but obviously these are positions of faith. Obviously many of them have. The tiny babies that God is happy to allow to be born with a horrendous condition that makes the child's life nothing but a few days of pain and suffering before they die, what joy have they known? Are you trying to say that God is wonderful because He will give these people paradise when they die? It is okay for God to allow all this suffering because He might give the victims a nice seat in heaven? That is a pretty sick belief wee man. What afterlife? Is it this fantasy that soothes your conscience? Does the belief in an afterlife excuse the fact that Yahweh is a pretty dense god? Victims of tsunamis, earthquakes, and other natural disasters are not victims of human nature. See what happened last xmas after the tsunami, God did nothing, while mankind was incredibly generous. Humans worked extremely hard to undo the terrible work that Yahweh did that day. You have a very perverse understanding of Christianity, because, according to xian theology, unless a person has accepted Jesus into their life then they are condemned to be separated from God for all eternity. So, all the Muslims, who specifically reject Jesus’ divinity, that died in the Tsunami sent by Yahweh, will be in Hell according to Christian theology. So, your crumb of comfort is certainly not biblical, but I am sure you will have a whole barrow load of excuses for God No, BELIEF in God gives you purpose, so what is this 'purpose'? What is your quest sir knight? What makes you think I, or anyone else, has a purpose? But, it isn't as simple as that. Let's take our Muslim friends again. Their purpose in life will be similar in a way to a Xians, to serve God. But, where will this purpose in a Muslim's life get them when they die according to Xianity? Keep in mind that Muslims demote Jesus to the status of being only a prophet, they know the Gospel and they openly reject it. So, what does the Christian afterlife hold for them? Why do so many atheists feel very fulfilled without God? You will never discover the Truth if you accept the first cookie that you are offered. What you have done is basically the same as many Christians, it is the equivalent of being asked to pick out the real dollar from a roll of ten one dollar bills, and you pull out the first one believe that is the real one without even looking at the others. You will never find the truth as long as you are wearing a blindfold. I can appreciate beauty as well as the next person, but I don’t have to wet my pants over it by thinking some deity from an ancient campfire story has anything to do with it. A great many scholars who once accepted the Bible as truth have had to change their views based on the wealth of information that contradicts the Bible. This is the difference between being a free thinker and being a robot. Try having a single individual free thought for once instead of regurgitating these tired old boring apologetics. You have accepted as truth because you have been brainwashed into believing it as truth and you do not have the strength of character to realise it. Maybe you will grow out of it, with any luck. I do apply it to all of these. Many things. The abuse of science, archaeology, history and anthropology by Christian apologists, the double standards, the wilful ignorance, the blind faith, the ignorance of the Bible contents, the abuse of the Bible, etc. ? So, all the gods from all civilisations are essentially Jesus in disguise? Well, since the lights go out and that’s that, what difference will it make? What is tragic is that so many people waste their lives away on a fantasy. The fear of Hell, or the reward of Heaven are two great reasons to believe in God aren’t they?Is that the meaning in your life, be good for fluffy Jesus or He will burn my worthless ass for all eternity? So, we are in agreement that Jesus isn’t God are we?Brian.

Are you completely ignorant of your own faith or what?Gzus, these guys are all Jewish victims of the Holocaust, you jnow that small thing where 6 million Jews were slaughtered because they rejected an obvious messianic imposter?Where do people go when they have heard the Gospel and reject it?Ask your preacher that one.Brian.

Thank you for noticing. Sometimes I wonder if the jingling spurs and flying bullets give people the wrong impression. I've never felt more alone than when I'm in a crowd of "Christians". I suspect that God feels the same way. Ignorance is bliss, but that isn't always a bad thing. Having "clues" about life is not my goal any more. Living life is my goal. That sounds like a good thing. Is your transmission slipping? That sounds more like an "after" than a "before".Has your life stopped vibrating since you "found" God? (How badly was He lost?)Have you found yourself yet? If not, I'd suggest looking around Denver - the Safeways might be a good place to start.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Just what is a Jesus fix?

nor should you. salvation is not measured in years nor the maturity of knowledge and understanding. i've only been a christian for 19 years, while i know people who have been for 40. but what is the difference between us? am i more questioning but more dependant? are they more steadfast and faithful? am i rebellious and heretical? who is to say but god?

just stop. your disagreement with him has no place in this thread and is, frankly, insulting to the rest of us (or at least me). take your dissent to a thread where it is more on topic.

um no. 6 million jews were slaughtered because they were thought to have an international conspiracy. if you think nazis were christian, you need to do a little research. they also killed no less than 9 million OTHER people including any polish citizen, jehovah's witnesses, gays, catholics, protestants, and dissentors. and those are just death camp statistics and don't include the 22 million russian soldiers killed in warfare and 12 million allied troops (not sure of the number of allied troops specific to the western theatre).your comments are not only off-topic, but ill-informed. please take them elsewhere.

a picture speaks a thousand words... but i don't speak german.the nazis were far more interested in reviving the pagan german roots and only used the church when it suited them. (google: the reich church) sure church people had just as many anti-semitic ideas as other people, but that does not define nazism as a christian movement. far from it. seriously.jackson spielvogel - hitler and nazi germany
alison owings - frauen
benjamin sax and dieter kuntz - inside hitler's germanyThis message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-12-2005 08:06 PM

You can't puzzle out "Deutche Christien"?

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Well, your intention was to promote how wonderful God is and how great it is to believe in Jesus the Christ. According to you “ The setting was perfect for me to find a reason to love the God that I see ,” yes, the setting was perfect to believe in fluffy Jesus, and it is easy to experience this when you are sitting in an air-conditioned room looking out the window at a nice sunny, idyllic scene, knowing that it is almost lunchtime and there's a lovely meal with your name on it in the canteen. But, since you see fluffy Jesus in the nice areas of life, why don't you give Him credit for creating cancer, AIDS, and every other cruel illness that He created? Do you still see a wonderful Jesus when you look at a starving child, or are you selective?

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Yes, it's easy for me to be able to say these things, in heat, in luxury, but for that to detract from any feelings for the existence of God, I'm not willing to apologize. I understand how you can start to call out God for these diseases, and this hell that so many experience. But I also know that without a God, these people could never experience bliss, in life on earth, or the afterlife. Life is good to many people, I never see a wonderful image of Jesus, I don't know what he looks like, and when I see starving children I think of why I was born into a life in America, so nice, when there are millions who are born into lives such as those for starving children. There is nothing I can do to change that, and I have a hard time grasping why there is this game, some get the hand they wanted, and a lot don't, it doesn't make sense I know, but rebuking me for it doesn't make sense. You're saying it was easy for me to realize that God exists, and I don't know if that is entirely true. It is commonly a daily struggle.Finding reasons becomes a strategy to discuss things with others, and to prove to myself that I am not crazy. Maybe I needed it I don't know. I do know that as horrible it is for so many, that they will not be without transendance, and they are worthier than me, for being able to live with God in these circumstances.

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You have missed the point. Yes, these are terrible unfortunate lives, but why are they terrible and unfortunate? Why is God such an incompetent buffoon?

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Why does God allow pain and suffering?He gave us free will. But what about?

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Victims of tsunamis, earthquakes, and other natural disasters are not victims of human nature. See what happened last xmas after the tsunami, God did nothing, while mankind was incredibly generous. Humans worked extremely hard to undo the terrible work that Yahweh did that day.

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God didn't want it to be this way.

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So, your crumb of comfort is certainly not biblical, but I am sure you will have a whole barrow load of excuses for God

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I believe that acceptance of the different paths to God might actually be supported. The Gods that have been written about may be all the same. It is a strong Christian belief that any other religions as similar as they are, are instead false, but aren't these beliefs all held as truth, and there is only one God. Tell me why it's unsupported using references, I'll try to do the same soon, but I have a AP Bio Test tommorrow.The rest of your post is rather redundant, I'll try to get everything in a paragraph or so, I really should be looking up genetics on wikipedia right now. But you have asked questions that have bothered me for a long time, and I am still having trouble answering them. Especially, why God allows suffering...You are trying to make this a conflict between Islam, and Christianity, but realize that I believe that most of these religions are tied together to explain truth. I said God gives me purpose because without a God, there is no afterlife, and we cease to exist, this means that my Life on earth holds no meaning, it is just "gone", and our love in this life ceases to matter. I don't think that is how it is, I believe that because God exists, our purpose is to understand it, what is commonly referred to seeking truth. Theology, philosophy, all these explanations for one thing, why we are here, and why we exist, and what is our purpose as humans. Part of my purpose is to understand the what I can safely say obvious existence of God.

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You will never discover the Truth if you accept the first cookie that you are offered.

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Hear me out. All of the cookies are essentially the same, every single piece of religion dedicated to answering the fundemental questions about GOD, are all attempts to explain GOD, all of these paths, buddhism, hinduism, christianity, islam, etc, they are all one in the same. We all are in this mess together attempting to explain it all, and you reject me, because you think that I have accpeted blindly this faith, this belief in Jesus as God, but you can't change the fact that I see this truth, and I see this beauty. You must see that there is no difference, between me and a person involved in tribal religion or eastern philosophies about life.I believe that you have lost the beauty in believing something that you can't see or use reason to explain.I'll leave you with lyrics to a song by a band I just saw live. P.O.D. They are not considered Christian rock, but I think they have a message.

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Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in.
In my head, in my heart, in my soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so.

and yet none of you have looked it up. sorry hon.

Can't figure out "Deutche Christen"?Can't figure out a swastika and a cross side-by-side?And I'm supposed to trust your interpretation of the Holocaust? Nazism as a Christian movement? Maybe not.But a Nazism as a movement of Christians? Absolutely.Besides, you cannot avoid the fact that many of the Nazi leaders embraced Christianity, and major churches of Europe embraced Nazism and racism. Try Mosse's Towards the Final Solution. True, many of the Nazi ideas adulterated Christianity with Paganistic philosophy, but the core values and stories of Christianity always remained intact.Also, even if you manage to separate Christianity entirely from the Nazi leadership, you've got the Christian citizenry rounding people up and putting them into ovens.The Final Solution would have never succeeded as far as it did without Christianity at its core.

yeah and that's why they all but outlawed christianity. the party claimed freedom of religion, but it was a myth. they supported the reich church of german christians. this was an abuse of the name and did not include any christian ideas. it had nothing to do with god or jesus or any of it. they suppressed christmas and easter etc. and uplifted may day; they took weddings out of the church and made them pagan.
seriously. try again.the nazi leaders were something more like scientologists. they believed in a seeded planet. mere humans originated here while aryans were placed here as something just less than gods.sure the pope at the time didn't fight the regime. sure he even declared some bizarre truce. sure most of the christians didn't fight the regime. did anyone else? no. the jews didn't; the jws didn't; the gays didn't; and neither did the christians until their lot was called. the poles fought, but no one listened.here's a paper i wrote last spring for my hitler and nazi germany class. i'd have cited more sources but my teacher was a lame-o and forbade the use of outside sources. i wasn't gonna post it, but you force my hand. it's more about the response of the church, but it includes a great deal on the government's interactions with it. i apologize that all my pretty tabbing doesn't translate.Passion and Politics
Response of Germany’s Churches to Nazism
EUH 4465 Hitler and Nazi Germany
Spring 2005I Introduction
II In the Beginning - early attitudes and their roots
A Protestant support
1 Nationalistic tendencies
a Respect for government
2 Conservative values
a Moral repositioning
3 Anti-Jewish thought
a Luther’s evolution
B Catholic hesitance
1 Early criticism
2 Nazi promises
C Other groups
1 Jehovah’s Witnesses and objections
III Redemption and Rebirth - shifting opinions and rebellion
A True colors
1 Ideological differences
2 Nazi intent
B Broken promises
1 ”Positive Christianity’
a The Reich Church
2 Political Machinations
a Keeping the faithful
IV Revelation - backlash and continued efforts
A Demonstrations and literature
1 The Confessional Church
2 Papal statements
B Persecution
V ConclusionI Introduction
The reaction of the church to the Nazi government is wrapped up in the reaction of the Nazi government to the church. For the most part, how Hitler treated the church, thus followed their support”or lack thereof. Right from the beginning, the Nazi party appeared to be the best option to protect the church. While communists held only the threat of an atheistic state, these Nazi’s and their anticommunist stance slowly won support (Spielvogel 114). “Point 24 of the party platform had promised freedom for all religious denominations as long as they were not a danger to the German race” (Spielvogel 113). By maintaining this point and by avoiding attacking the churches while campaigning for votes”and had even sometimes trying to gain the supports of Catholics and Protestants”Hitler made his party look like the one best suited to ensuring the church’s survival (Spielvogel 113).
II In the Beginning - early attitudes and their roots
In addition to the at least quasi-church-friendly outward stance of the party, Protestants shared a particular ideological trait with the Nazis. Protestants shared nationalistic values (Spielvogel 113). Protestants in Germany wanted a strong nation to rise once more from the ashes left in World War I as much as every other good German.
“Then there was a poem at the time, that the German people were waiting for a Fhrer, nicht? The poem went, ”O God, send us a Fhrer who will change our misfortune, by God’s word.’ And many Germans felt the same way” (Owings 56).
The Protestants felt that God would give them a strong leader who would make Germany great again. When Hitler showed himself to be this strong leader, many in the church were won. At the same time, Lutherans believed that all governments are placed in power by God’s will. Thus, when the new regime came to power, they had some amount of automatic respect.
Protestants also shared conservative values with the new Nazi Party (Spielvogel 113). As a part of his Antisocialist campaign, he also fought modern indiscretions in the arts. Hitler blamed the Weimar . government for the cultural disintegration and moral decay of Germany. Part of his new regime’s plan was to purge modern immorality from art, literature, cinema and the press. February 23, 1933, all pornographic literature was banned (Spielvogel 186). By these actions, “Hitler appeared to support traditional Christian values” (Spielvogel 113) which the people were, no doubt, wont to reclaim.
More insidious, is a common agreement with at least the basic idea of Nazi anti-Semitism. As readers of much of the same religious text and bound by the command to love one’s neighbor, Churches’ theoretical were averse to anti-Jewish thought. This aversion was eroded by the wide acceptance of such ideas among followers (Spielvogel 113). In fact, one source of such ideas was the very originator of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther. Luther described the Jews as “criminals desiring world rule, killers of Christ and Christendom, and a plague to Germany.” He even suggested destruction of Jewish property and religious literature, theft of their financial assets and, further, even forcing them “like mad dogs out of the land” in his text The Jews and Their Lies (Spielvogel 272). However, popular opinion seemed to stand more with merely exporting the Jews rather than victimizing them in any way. “The methods, well, they should do it another way, but not with force” was a common thought (Owings 60).
The Catholic Church had a seemingly much different reaction to the Nazi administration. “Before the Nazi seizure of power in 1933 the Catholic church had been a major opponent of Nazism (Spielvogel 114). Despite this criticism, however, the church members and even its leaders saw the anticommunist stance of the party as a beneficial one and, like the Protestants, had some nationalistic tendencies (Spielvogel 113). In order to gain the confidence of the Catholic church, the Nazi government signed an agreement with the Roman Catholic church leadership. The terms were as such: the church would “recognize the legitimacy of the Nazi regime and eliminate all political and social organizations of German Catholicism”; for Germany’s part, the government would “guarantee freedom of religion, protection of church institutions, the right to disseminate papal letters and encyclicals, and the preservation of catholic schools” (Spielvogel 114). The Catholic church trusted the Nazi’s to hold to their word and made steps to come into line with the concordat.
Other groups also had to make decisions on how they would react to the new government. Jehovah’s witnesses were persecuted for refusing any cooperation with the state including Nazi organizations and military involvement. Nearly all their members were persecuted and a third were killed. Their crime was being “influenced by world Jewry and communism” along with other groups like Freemasons (Spielvogel 117).
III Redemption and Rebirth - shifting opinions and rebellion
The truth of the Nazi party was that it was diametrically and intrinsically opposed to any kind of religious belief which might require loyalty to anything other than Hitler himself. For example, “The Catholic Church was part of a vast international body with a firm doctrine and an ultimate ruling authority outside of Germany” (Spielvogel 114). While Hitler’s “spiritual movement” demanded absolute allegiance, he was reticent to demand such and risk alienating so many supporters (Spielvogel 113). The Nazi party had no intentions of keeping any promises to any of the churches that might compromise their position or authority. They reserved the right to change their policy towards any religious body at any time.
As Hitler stated in Mein Kampf, only a spiritual movement can overcome another, the Nazi regime attempted to create a new cult based around German nationalism with Hitler as Messiah and with a strong emphasis on indoctrination (Spielvogel 116). In order to better control one front in this ideological war, “The Nazis had encouraged the formation in 1932 of a Protestant pro-Nazi organization called German Christians, who ardently supported the regime’s racial doctrines” (Spielvogel 114). This eliminated a large opposition group and assisted in spreading the ideas. Further, the German Christians sought to unite all the Protestant churches into a single Reich church under a single bishop. Ludwig Mller was selected by Hitler for this office (Spielvogel 114). Slowly, this group began to institute such measures as to attempt to decrease the influence of the church. The Nazi party attempted to institute pagan-based lebensfeiren (life celebrations) to replace Christian holidays and traditions in the new “positive Christianity” cult of German supremacy. These never became popular and their observance decreased even more during wartime (Sax and Kuntz 482).
Christian support of the government followed their nationalistic tendencies and Hitler was reticent to lose their support with war on the horizon and thus a tenuous tolerance defined the relationship (Spielvogel 117). As much as he might have liked to have completely eliminated Christian ideology, Hitler was forced into delicate machinations to keep control over the Christians and yet keep their support. In July 1935 Hans Kerrl was appointed to lead a new Ministry of Church Affairs to attempt to control the Christian population as the efforts of the German Christians and their Reich church had failed (Spielvogel 115).
IV Revelation - backlash and continued efforts
The Protestant church reacted strongly to government attempts to control it. Persecution by the regime caused a rival Confessional church to form against the authority of the Reich church. The ideological assaults made by the Reich church met equal response in the Confessional church. Martin Niemller formed the Pastors’ Emergency League in September 1933 which condemned Nazification as contrary to doctrine and was in particular opposition to Nazi racial ideology. The group was four thousand strong by 1934 (Spielvogel 114-115). The government viewed him as a “hostile” and as “[rejecting] any encroachment by the state in the internal or external affairs of the church (Sax and Kuntz 483). The Confessional church held a synod at Barmen in May 1934 and there composed the Barmen Confession. This document denounced the views of the German Christians. However, these men were declaring theological, not political, freedom from the regime; they still accepted their Caesar and respected the government, never participating in more than passive resistance to Nazi policy (Spielvogel 115). This passive resistance did, however, from time to time make biting, direct criticisms on the regime. Two such occasions follow. “In 1936, the Confessional church directed a memorandum to Hitler in which it attacked the government’s anti-Christian campaign, asked whether anti-Semitism was not contrary to the Christian commandment to love one’s neighbor, and openly criticized the lawlessness of the Gestapo” (Spielvogel 116). In reference to some four thousand murders in Katyn Forest as discovered in April 1943, the Westphalia clergy declared that the Nazis had “no right to express alarm over this bestial slaughter;” citing the use of similar acts by the SS, which they then went on to decry. “This heinous and inhuman treatment of the Jews at the hands of the SS demands of God that he punish our nation” (Sax and Kuntz 495). Regardless, dogmatic respect for state authority prevented any true resistance plots against the Nazi state (Spielvogel 114). In response to pleas from German Catholics after a great deal of harassment”and worse”by the government, Pope Pius XI dispersed a document to the church. This document called Mit Brennender Sorge (With Burning Anxiety) “denounced the Nazi persecution of the church and attacked the insidious cult of race” (Spielvogel 116). Following the reading of Pius’ declarations, the Nazi persecution only increased, and swiftly. Some specifics of religious persecution under the Nazi regime include lost jobs, arrests, and even murders. The Catholic church was especially targeted as a result of their international ties. “Catholic teachers were dismissed from their jobs. Young people in catholic youth groups were pressured to join Hitler Youth. In the blood purge of June 1934 the leaders of Catholic Action and Catholic Youth Sports were among the murder victims, although both were officially listed as suicides” (Spielvogel 114). In 1936 and 1937, Catholic priests and nuns were tried for invented “immorality” charges which portrayed church officials as the worst variety of sexual deviant and criminal (Spielvogel 116).
Protestants missed much of this wrath as their movement was mostly centered on Germany”wherein its origins lay”and they lacked the ”foreign allegiances’ of the Catholics. But the Nazis still found any excuse to restrict the activities of religious people. “Herr vom Rath . He was a German diplomat in Paris and he was murdered by a Jew. And because he was murdered by a Jew, we German teachers could no longer take it upon ourselves to teach Christian religion . ” (Owings 60). The Nazi interest in Protestant unity waned but harassment of Confessional church members continued (Spielvogel 115). The regime’s stance was that “Agitator-Priests” ought to be handled by the Gestapo “and, if the occasion arises, be removed to a Concentration Camp” (Sax and Kuntz 491). Pastor’s Emergency League members were reprimanded and arrested (Spielvogel 115). The Gestapo unapologetically arrested orthodox Lutheran bishops in spite of resulting in protests at home and “adverse reactions abroad” (Spielvogel 115). Finally, Friedrich Weissler, Confessional church leader and signer of the critical memorandum sent to Hitler was detained and murdered in Sachsenhausen concentration camp and by 1937, the number of arrested pastors surpassed seven hundred (Spielvogel 117).
V Conclusion
While ideologically opposed to so much of the Nazi policy, the churches in Germany failed to mount any real resistance to the tyrannical controls placed not only on said churches, but on every other aspect of German life. In spite of suffering great persecution, the church could not stand against the government which God had placed over them and the only force they saw keeping back the tide of atheist communism.Works CitedOwings, Alison. (2003). Frauen: German Women Recall the Third Reich. New Brunswick. Rutgers University Press.Sax, Benjamin and Dieter Kuntz. (1992). Inside Hitler’s Germany: A Documentary History of Life in the Third Reich. Lexington, Massachusetts. D.C. Heath and Company.Spielvogel, Jackson J. (2005). Hitler and Nazi Germany: A History. Upper Saddle River, New Jersey. Pearson: Prentice Hall.

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This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-13-2005 12:35 AM

Absurd. Obviously a paper based solely on three pre-determined sources is not going to be well balanced, and I have no interest in wasting my time on such shite. I have plenty of scholarly sources describing Christianity under Nazism, and as part of Nazism - I don't need your class exercise to educate me on the subject.Christians enacted the Holocaust, not scientologists.This is all more than off-topic anyway - I won't respond again in this thread.