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Author Topic:   Why does God need to be worshipped?
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 11 of 64 (467144)
05-19-2008 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Grizz
05-19-2008 7:39 PM


Re: Experience?
The biggest problem with any sort of infinite God is that it ends in contradictions. Logically speaking, you can't have an Omnipotent being, let alone combining Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnibenevolence, as the Judeo-Christian theology does.
The cliche question of whether God can create something that He can't lift, illustrates the inherent contradiction in an Omnipotent being. Adding the other infinite attributes only makes matters worse. The only way to try and worm around it is to say that the logic of this world doesn't need to transfer to the "spiritual realm" but I would guess an illogical or alogical God isn't something people want either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Grizz, posted 05-19-2008 7:39 PM Grizz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Grizz, posted 05-19-2008 8:06 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 13 of 64 (467161)
05-19-2008 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Grizz
05-19-2008 8:06 PM


Re: Experience?
That could be. But when you start saying things like "can do ANYTHING," it begs the question of whether you actually mean "can do anything logically possible," or "can do anything whether its logical or not." I don't see the comparison between a god making something and then not being able to lift it, or destroy it, or whatever with it, and a mathematician trying to make a set that contains numbers that aren't part of the set. The second is definitionally impossible, the first isn't. Can I make something I can't lift? Yes. Does that mean I have an "ability" that God doesn't?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Grizz, posted 05-19-2008 8:06 PM Grizz has replied

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 33 of 64 (467594)
05-22-2008 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by iano
05-22-2008 4:18 PM


Re: Experience?
Once placed in a position of belief (by act of God)
Does this mean that the reason I don't believe is because God doesn't want me to? He hasn't acted in such a way as to place me in a position of belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by iano, posted 05-22-2008 4:18 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 05-23-2008 6:45 AM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 35 of 64 (467634)
05-22-2008 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
05-22-2008 6:12 PM


Re: Notions
I notice everybody here seems to want to blame God for everything that happens on the earth. That is not the case. Satan is in charge of the earth therefore it is his responsibility not God's.
But God created Satan, with full knowledge of what Satan would do. Doesn't God, then, share at least some of the responsibility?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 05-22-2008 6:12 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 12:49 AM Perdition has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 43 of 64 (467672)
05-23-2008 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by iano
05-23-2008 6:45 AM


Re: Experience?
But God already knows whether I will "be convinced" or not. He knew before I was born, so if I go to my grave not being convinced, its because God knowingly did not do enough to convince me. It seems like he likes people who are easily convinced of something, and just lets the skeptical of "his creations" fall.
It would be like a parent of two children caring only for one child because that child is easy and letting the other one go because its more difficult. It sounds to me like a lazy, negligent parent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by iano, posted 05-23-2008 6:45 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 1:18 PM Perdition has replied
 Message 54 by iano, posted 05-24-2008 9:53 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 46 of 64 (467713)
05-23-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
05-23-2008 1:18 PM


Re: Experience?
Where do you get the idea from that it is God's obligation to convince you of anything, must less His existence.
I was replying to Iano who said it was God's job to convince me. He said that people believe because God has convinced them of his existance. If that's the case, then the reason I don't believe must be because God has not tried hard enough to convince me on purpose.
You don't like God's plan. Then reject it.
It's not that I dislike God's plan and reject anything. It's that I don't believe there is a plan because I don't believe there is a God. If that disbelief is enough to punish me, and God knew, even before I was born that I would not believe, is it really fair to punish ME, when he allowed me to exist solely to be punished.
God simply wants obedience, That is all He ever wanted.
Then why doesn't he ask for it in a way I will understand or see? It's like leaving a note for a blind person, asking them to clean up the apartment, then getting angry when they didn't follow the directions in the letter. It's not the blind person's fault if the information was left in such a way that they couldn't find it or understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 1:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 3:49 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 49 of 64 (467732)
05-23-2008 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ICANT
05-23-2008 3:49 PM


Re: Experience?
Don't blame God. Blame your parents and their parents for not teaching you about God and living an example before you that would show you that there is a God.
While you are at it you can also blame Modern Religion. You can include the Churches. But you can't include Iano or myself with them.
I don't BLAME anybody, because I don't think it's a bad thing. I treasure the fact that my parents taught me to think for myself and think things through rather than accepting things that are told me without any evidence.
I certainly don't blame you or Iano.
He gave a manual with all the instructions, but nobody reads the manual.
That's my point. There is a book, written thousands of years ago for mostly illiterate desert nomads and shepherds. A book with bald assertions is not the type of evidence I would believe. This is the type of make-up I have. I ask for concrete proof, and there's nothing I can do about that. If God expects everyone to be convinced by the same thing, then he's a moron. If he leaves only that book as proof, then he's essentially saying that he doesn't want me to believe, because he knows a book will not convince me.
It is entirely plausible to say that God doesn't care. That he created the Universe and life and then turned a deaf ear and a blind eye. But that doesn't seem to be the type of God most Christians want.

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 Message 48 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 3:49 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 55 of 64 (467916)
05-25-2008 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by iano
05-24-2008 9:53 PM


Re: Experience?
He'll present enough evidence to convince you - but won't prevent you suppressing that evidence. In a general sense, suppressing evidence is something we do in order to remain unconvinced of something.
That's my point. He DOESN'T give enough evidence to convince me. An old book, written 2000 years ago for mostly illiterate nomads and shepherds isn't convincing to me. There are many books written for many religions that claim many of the same things as the Bible. I treat each of them the same, because there is just as much evidence for all of them.
In fact, all the evidence I see seems to point the other way. The geologic column, physics, biology, genetics, cosmology, and chemistry. Even psychology and medicine. If God is presenting us with evidence, it seems to me that he's presenting us with far more evidence of his non-existence than of his existence. That would mean God, who gave me the mind and logical/observational capacity I have, is deliberately placing convincing evidence in front of me that contradicts his existence.
Our past, present and future are all now to God. We're the time-bound ones and talk in time-bound langauge decribing time-bound concepts. He's not time bound. Mixing up the units of time and eternity you get sentences like this.
God knows now whether you will be convinced in your future because he is there, at your future, with you, now.
Again, he's seeing exactly how convinced I will be by his book. He knows "now" if that is evidence that would convince someone with the mental make-up I have. He knows it won't, and yet he does nothing to try and convince me. He's throwing in the towel and saying, "That book wasn't enough, I'm not willing to do any more than that, so I guess he's just screwed."
But pressure builds up and Gods hope and plan is that the pressure of suppressed truth buried PLUS the accumulated shame and guilt resuling from actions following that suppression - will erupt in a massive explosion which results in our very being dying. Not our physical bodies necessarily - just our being.
The funny thing is, it's the "saved" people who seem to feel this shame. I don't subscribe to an outdated and illogical moral theory. Many of the things in the Bible do agree with my morality, and those things I follow. I don't lie, or steal, or cheat. I treat people as I would want to be treated myself. I think I'm a good person, and feel absolutely no shame for my character. I don't think I'm a loathsome piece of shit that can't make any good choices without relying on an invisibly Daddy figure to tell me right from wrong. I feel bad that you consider yourself to be so horrible that you need to be saved from yourself.
Skepticism? Skepticism is like murder and stealing and queue-skipping, all mere lackeys of Pride. All sin serves pride ultimately. Take a look at your own sin and you'll see that that's the god being served.
Skepticism is what allows us to see through bullshitters and people who would do the things we both believe are immoral. The liars, the cheaters and the stealers. If I weren't skeptical, I'd be taken in by all the con-men in the world, unable to make decisions in my own best interest. Skepticism is healthy and necessary. You, yourself, have a lot of healthy skepticism. You're skeptical of the Greek and Roman myths. You're skeptical of that 3 am infomercial trying to sell you a knife that can cut through your sneakers.
A man can fool himself into thinking he's okay with his fine house, his beautiful wife and kids, the car, the job, the etc. And he can fool other people that he's a decent, upstanding citizen. Gods job is to use a mans sin to convince a man that there really is something rotten and sick inside him. At the core.
Again, I feel sorry that you see yourself in such a bad light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 05-24-2008 9:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 05-25-2008 8:19 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3268 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 57 of 64 (467943)
05-25-2008 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by iano
05-25-2008 8:19 PM


Re: Experience?
Nope. The evidence comes at you obliquely, stealthily, fairly well unbeknownst to you. For it's not primarily a head-gig. If those I have witnessed coming to faith are anything to go by (and I include myself in this) then you'll either have a Damascus road like experience (Saul could be said to have been downright antagonistic to Christianity right up to that point). Or it will be a gradual affair where you look back and realise that you've become a Christian at some point but can't remember exactly at what point you crossed the line.
Then we're back to the point that God hasn't seen fit to give me a "Damascus road like experience." And as for graduality, I used to be a Christian, in the sense that I believed in God and Jesus and even went to church occasionally. As I got older and began to reevaluate everything I had just assumed to be true, I realized that I really no longer believed, I was just "going through the motions." It was, like I see in a lot of "Christians," believing "just in case." I realized that that kind of belief wouldn't fool a God as all-knowing as the God I had believed in, so it was a pointless exercise. God just doesn't make sense to me. It seems highly unlikely and illogical for there to be a being who would give us our ability to reason and tease out the secrets of the world, and then ask us to abandon that reason when it comes to him.
There's a lot of Christian cosmologists, evolutionists, geneticists, geologists. My fiance is a Christian psychologist in training. The one apparently doesn't exclude the other.
Read up on the fathers of modern science: Newton, Kepler, Morse, Faraday, Watt, Joule, Boyle etc. It was their conviction that the world was the product of an ordered and logical mind that got them thinking that the way to investigate it was to apply order and logic. Alchemy became chemistry as a result.
Christians the lot of 'em.
You're right. I don't believe that religion and science are mutually exclusive. They deal in different realms. In that regard, I find it exceedingly funny that many Christians feel the need to "prove" their religion using science. IDists, Creation Scientists, etc are all playing a losing game. Faith is faith, if someone needs proof, it ceases to be faith, and if their faith is so shaky as to fall apart should anything in the Bible be shown to not be 100% literal, then they have very shaky faith indeed.
Were I to ever find myself back in the realm of the religious, I would only make it as far as a Deist. I would believe in a God who created the Big Bang, and then took a step back to watch the Universe unfold, needing no more influence on his part. But honestly, I don't even see myself making it there, because again, a supreme deity makes absolutely no sense to me.
The sense of conviction of sin is something that (hopefully) builds up, causes (hopefully) an explosion resulting in your certain salvation. Thereafter you have no right to feel guilty and ashamed - although habits (and satan) die hard. To feel shame and guilt as a Christian is to say Christs sacrifice wasn't enough. The Christian has no right to wallow in guilt and shame. He needs to get on his knees and face his father.
Again, I consider myself to be a very good person, whether I believe in a god or not. I make my mistakes and I have done some things I'm not proud of, but I don't think doing things like that sticks with me like some sort of oily residue. I rather view it as a learning experience, akin to falling off your bike. I see how it makes me feel and how it makes others feel, and I learn that I don't like being that type of person.
It (skepticism) has it's uses in that regard. I meant it in regard to it's serving pride.
I see it exactly the other way. I think it's pride to believe that I have found the "Truth" and that there is no way I could be wrong. I am skeptical about everything I believe. I try and reevaluate my beliefs on a regular basis and see if I have some new perspective that may change my mind. It was that reevaluation that caused me to realize that I wasn't a Christian. It was that type of reevaluation that lead me to give up my original goal of becoming a physicist and pursue philosophy instead, and it is that reevaluation that lead me to my current moral theory. I think skepticism is healthy and necessary if one truly wants to get as close to "truth" as possible, rather than accepting that you're there now and have no more need to pursue and honest search. Skepticism, to me, is the antithesis of pride.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 05-25-2008 8:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 05-26-2008 3:35 AM Perdition has not replied

  
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