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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 286 of 319 (814113)
07-04-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Faith
07-04-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Too funny. It seems that they also stop telling the truth.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Faith, posted 07-04-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 2:21 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 287 of 319 (814115)
07-04-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by ringo
07-04-2017 1:26 PM


DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
which brings up a fair question. Does everyone automatically start out as an atheist or is that something requiring mindful decisions?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 1:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 4:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 300 by ringo, posted 07-05-2017 3:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 288 of 319 (814117)
07-04-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
07-04-2017 2:03 PM


Truth or Consequences
It seems that they also stop telling the truth.
Who are "they"? And why do you make this assertion? Are you claiming that Fundamentalists lie more often than the general population?

If so, is your reasoning that they know and yet deny reality?

You yourself have said that some of your own beliefs are irrational.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 07-04-2017 2:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 07-04-2017 2:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29364
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 289 of 319 (814121)
07-04-2017 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Phat
07-04-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Truth or Consequences
Phat writes:

Who are "they"? And why do you make this assertion? Are you claiming that Fundamentalists lie more often than the general population?

No idea of how they compare to some general population but yes, I believe that Fundamentalist Christianity is based on lying and wilful delusion.

Phat writes:

If so, is your reasoning that they know and yet deny reality?

Know? No. I doubt they even understand what the word "know" means.

Phat writes:

You yourself have said that some of your own beliefs are irrational.

Absolutely. But I try hard to not confuse "know" and "believe".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 2:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 290 of 319 (814125)
07-04-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phat
07-04-2017 2:17 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Phat writes:

Does everyone automatically start out as an atheist or is that something requiring mindful decisions?

Do you really need to ask that?

You think a child would know and understand the religious stories without being taught them almost from birth? It's not a coincidence that you're a Christian but it is an accident of birth. To have been a believer of any other religion you would have had to have been born to different parents, often in a different country.

There are exceptions where people swop religions later in life but there are NO cases of people spontaneously becoming Christians or any other religion without having first learnt of it.

Religiosity is learnt behaviour.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 2:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 07-05-2017 12:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9762
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 291 of 319 (814140)
07-05-2017 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Tangle
07-04-2017 4:21 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Tangle writes:

Religiosity is learned behavior.

I would argue that atheism is also a learned behavior. Of course children are told stories. They also have to be taught what is truth and what is myth.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 4:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 3:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 301 by Diomedes, posted 07-06-2017 9:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 292 of 319 (814226)
07-05-2017 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Phat
07-05-2017 12:34 AM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Phat writes:

I would argue that atheism is also a learned behavior

Why don't you try arguing it?

Of course children are told stories. They also have to be taught what is truth and what is myth.

So children are taught the stories of Jehovah or Allah or Jesus and become Jews, Muslims and Christians.

Imagine a world where children are not taught the stories. How do they become believers? They can't spontaneously believe in something they know nothing about.

There wouldn't even be a word for what they are would there? They've not learned to be atheist because there's nothing there to not believe in.

Given that we have these stories in the world, do people learn to become atheist? No - they mostly have to unlearn belief. But in countries where atheism is the norm, they at least start life without the burden of belief imposed on them and as they learn more about the world they can accept a belief or not as a choice instead of an imposition.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Phat, posted 07-05-2017 12:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 293 of 319 (814241)
07-05-2017 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Tangle
07-05-2017 3:31 AM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Imagine a world where children are not taught the stories. How do they become believers? They can't spontaneously believe in something they know nothing about.

The same way that the first believers came about and the first religions emerged. Weird shit happens and people talk to each other about it.

It turns out that people do find personal religions on their own without having beliefs dictated to them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 3:31 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 11:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 294 of 319 (814251)
07-05-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 10:49 AM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
NCE writes:

The same way that the first believers came about and the first religions emerged. Weird shit happens and people talk to each other about it.

It turns out that people do find personal religions on their own without having beliefs dictated to them.

Oh sure, you mean like Mormons, Scientology, Wicca etc.

Yup, people just can't help making stuff up, then worshopping it. Some people seek power and more people are gullible. Luckily it's in decline.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:49 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 295 of 319 (814264)
07-05-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Tangle
07-05-2017 11:40 AM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Yup, people just can't help making stuff up, then worshopping it.

So they can start believing something they knew nothing about?

You're contradicting yourself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 11:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 2:07 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 296 of 319 (814266)
07-05-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 2:01 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
NCE writes:

Yup, people just can't help making stuff up, then worshopping it.
So they can start believing something they knew nothing about?

You're contradicting yourself.

Now you're being disingenous.

The leaders make the stuff up, the followers worship it.
(And, donate their money of course.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:01 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:11 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 297 of 319 (814267)
07-05-2017 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Tangle
07-05-2017 2:07 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
The leaders make the stuff up, the followers worship it.

And that is just one of the ways in which people become religious - there are others too that you're failing to consider, or worse, just outright denying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 2:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 2:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5065
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 298 of 319 (814269)
07-05-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 2:11 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
NCE writes:

And that is just one of the ways in which people become religious -

That's the way all the major religions have started and developed so.....

there are others too that you're failing to consider, or worse, just outright denying.

Before I can deny them, you have to tell me what they are.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 3:01 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11707
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 299 of 319 (814271)
07-05-2017 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Tangle
07-05-2017 2:17 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
NCE writes:

And that is just one of the ways in which people become religious -

That's the way all the major religions have started and developed so.....

So people can still be religious even if membership in major religions declines.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 2:17 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13641
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 300 of 319 (814272)
07-05-2017 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Phat
07-04-2017 2:17 PM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
Phat writes:

Does everyone automatically start out as an atheist or is that something requiring mindful decisions?


Since there's a strong correlation with the local religion - children in North America don't spontaneously start believing in Odin or Ganesha - so it definitely seems to be learned behaviour. I suppose it's possible that they have an innate belief in "something" like gods or leprechauns and that innate belief might be imprinted with the local religion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 2:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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