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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 662
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 301 of 319 (814315)
07-06-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Phat
07-05-2017 12:34 AM


Re: DEMONstrations of logic, reason, and reality
I would argue that atheism is also a learned behavior. Of course children are told stories. They also have to be taught what is truth and what is myth.

As an atheist, I cannot say that I 'learned' to become an atheist. It was actually a result of utilizing deductive logic and coming to a conclusion on my own. But I was not taught in anyway to become an atheist. If anything, I grew up in a time when bible study was still taught in public schools. My parents were Greek Orthodox and while we weren't excessively religious, we did attend churches from time to time. Yet the conclusion I came to did not align with what I was actually being 'taught' as it pertains to religious beliefs.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 302 of 319 (814335)
07-07-2017 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Stile
07-04-2017 1:23 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
ribngo writes:

As more and more people grow away from Christianity, why is the occurrence of demon possession also declining? Shouldn't it be going up?

Not if the outcome is in line with Satan. Why possess someone who is already a non-believer?

Of course, to be fair, this correlates demonic oppression with belief. Which actually lends support to the whole mental illness thing. Tangle could be right. All belief could be a form of mental disorder.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Stile, posted 07-04-2017 1:23 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 303 of 319 (814337)
07-07-2017 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
07-07-2017 4:27 AM


Re: Demons do not exist
NCE writes:

Tangle could be right. All belief could be a form of mental disorder.

Not what I'm saying. Primarily, belief is learnt, almost always from birth, but it can be unlearned when better idea are found - as we see is now happening across the developed world.

But yes, it can also be a mental aberration triggered by other personal issues sometimes trauma. Survival - grasping at straws to prevent a total breakdown.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 4:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 304 of 319 (814483)
07-10-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
07-07-2017 4:27 AM


Re: Demons do not exist
Phat writes:

Not if the outcome is in line with Satan. Why possess someone who is already a non-believer?

Ah, I see.

So, really, if I converted and became a Christian, it would result in more demon possession.
So to do my part and help prevent demon possession... I should remain an atheist and definitely stay away from all of Christianity.

Are you sure you like the logic behind that sort of answer?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 4:27 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 9757
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 305 of 319 (814488)
07-10-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Stile
07-10-2017 11:54 AM


Re: Demons do not exist
Stile writes:

I should remain an atheist and definitely stay away from all of Christianity.

In your case, yes. I don't believe that you will be sent to hell or have a more troubled life simply due to your calm and patient questioning and logical approach. Your logic is a gift. You have already explained several times why you are not a believer.

Allow me to ask you a question. Is the whole idea of demons as illogical as the idea of God? Can you hypothetically walk us through your deductive analysis?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 11:54 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 306 of 319 (814489)
07-10-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Stile
07-04-2017 1:23 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Demon possession probably IS going up with the decline of Christianity and especially the influx of eastern pagan religions into America since the seventies. It's simply unrecognized because "rational" humanity denies it. It's probably the cause of most mental illnesses, it's certainly the cause of bizarre serial murders and many sexual aberrations, and it's also very likely that the great world tyrants were possessed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Stile, posted 07-04-2017 1:23 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 1:22 PM Faith has responded
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 307 of 319 (814496)
07-10-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Phat writes:

Is the whole idea of demons as illogical as the idea of God? Can you hypothetically walk us through your deductive analysis?

Demons, Gods, pixies, elves, leprechauns, angels, dowsing, voodoo, witchcraft, astrology, mind-reading, fortune-telling, superstitions of all sorts - none of these are logical; they're just beliefs.

If you want to know the truth of any of them you can't find it in logic; it's not knowable by thought processes alone. For 3,000 years or more the smartest people that have ever lived have murdered these ideas and got absolutely nowhere.

Look for EVIDENCE.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 308 of 319 (814507)
07-10-2017 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Why demons do not exist
Phat writes:

Is the whole idea of demons as illogical as the idea of God?

I don't know about 'illogical' but 'as unlikely?' certainly yes.

I'm not an atheist because I logically think God does not exist based on some built up theory.
I'm an atheist because the ideas of God (and equally, demons) look remarkably similar to all other ideas of humans that are imaginary and not-true.

  • They do not have repeatable observations
  • Those who do believe, seem to want to believe
  • There doesn't seem to be any valid searching into the actual truth, it's more based on "accept and go from there!" rather than "well, if you look at this and this and this that we can all see... the only conclusion is this one... does anyone disagree?"
  • There are promises of gifts or making life easier or better or protecting you from things that you can't detect or things that no one has ever been protected from in all of history (even those within the actual belief!)
  • There are promises of "no costs" (except for your tithing, or donations, or your time, or your integrity by having you accept some things without questioning them...)
  • Stories are always anecdotal and vague and overly-exaggerated (like "omni-everything!")
  • Questions on the stories or the "costs" are never answered and generally frowned upon
  • There doesn't seem to be a positive difference to note about the lives of those religiously inclined and the lives of those not religiously inclined when looking at populations in general
  • Authoritative (or sometimes just 'loud') leaders/promoters tend to be afraid to say "I don't know" or "we don't have a reliable answer for that" and instead rely on empty sayings like "Don't worry, there's a plan and it'll be taken care of" or "The Lord works in mysterious ways!"
  • There never seems to be any limits... it's always a 'cure-all!' or 'fix-everything!' solution. Yet none of the followers are cured of everything or have everything fixed.
  • When a valid, but mundane, solution is obvious... the group is reluctant to speak of it or investigate it
  • There is a sense that "all actions/words/thoughts" must be done in accordance to the belief
  • Open and honest discussion or investigation seems to be frowned upon

These all point towards a strategy of "alternative motivation" other than the perceived claim to 'help people' or 'do good.'

If you want to help people, or do good... do you really need any of the parts than come in conflict with any of the above issues I've presented?

If you truly want to help people, or do good... why is that not the priority? Why is "belief" the priority?
This belies the fact that helping people or doing good is actually not the priority. In which case... why should anyone ever bother with it at all?


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13639
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 309 of 319 (814508)
07-10-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Phat writes:

I don't believe that you will be sent to hell or have a more troubled life simply due to your calm and patient questioning and logical approach.


That's self-serving, isn't it? You want your God to be loving and protecting but you still believe in malicious demons? Why doesn't your God protect us from them?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 2964
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 310 of 319 (814509)
07-10-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:

Demon possession probably IS going up with the decline of Christianity and especially the influx of eastern pagan religions into America since the seventies.

Is that a threat? Because I'm not scared.
If not and you mean it as a fact... can you show me how it's true so we can do something about it?

If you can't show how it's true... why do you even think that it's true?

It's simply unrecognized because "rational" humanity denies it.

I don't deny it.
I simply don't see anything that actually shows it's happening. With a complete lack of a reason to accept it... I do not accept it.

You can be the first to offer me the truth, though. Please show me a demon possession or what you think is the most-reliable-way to convince me that they actually do exist.

It's probably the cause of most mental illnesses

This is not true.
I don't know a lot about mental illness compared to a professional (like Larni).
But I do know a lot about mental illness compared to the average population in western society.

And I know more than enough to know that this is false.

it's certainly the cause of bizarre serial murders and many sexual aberrations

Again, no, it's not.

But you can convince me otherwise, if you can show that what you say is true. Just present your best-scenario that shows the truth of your words. I'll read it, I promise. We can talk about it.

and it's also very likely that the great world tyrants were possessed.

Wrong again.

Thinking that mental illness has a significant influence from demons is exactly the same thing as thinking that getting sick has a significant influence from demons.

They are both not true.

There is one big difference though:

About getting sick: Most people understand that germs and bacteria exist and how they can infect us and cause us to get sick.
About mental illness: Most people do not understand that brains are not all exactly the same or that some people can have experiences different from others or that some people react to the same experiences differently. This failure to understand these concepts lead to a failure to understand the mundane explanations for mental illness - ie "How Brains Function."

People who were ignorant about germs and bacteria causing sickness are exactly the same as people who are ignorant about how brain functionality causes mental illness.

I can show you germs and bacteria.
I can show you brain functionality and how it causes mental illness.

Can you show me anything about demon possession?
Can you show me anything about demon existence?

Talk of demons only does one thing - wastes the time that could be spent focusing on the real issue that can actually be corrected or mitigated with proper care.

Just like talk of demons only wastes time in treating people getting sick.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 3:14 PM Stile has responded

    
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 662
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 311 of 319 (814512)
07-10-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Demon possession probably IS going up with the decline of Christianity and especially the influx of eastern pagan religions into America since the seventies. It's simply unrecognized because "rational" humanity denies it. It's probably the cause of most mental illnesses, it's certainly the cause of bizarre serial murders and many sexual aberrations, and it's also very likely that the great world tyrants were possessed.

Sorry, but demon possession, like many other old world beliefs was simply how the primitives explained what they did not understand. We have knowledge of numerous diseases that exist nowadays that when they manifest, would give the appearance of something terrifying. Especially if that individual doesn't have a fundamental understanding of anatomy of disease pathogens.

You can find videos on youtube of individuals in the later stages of diseases like rabies or certain forms of inflammation of the brain. They are quite difficult to watch and from the perspective of some individual from the middle ages would come across as evidence of 'demon possession'. Yet we all know these are not any form of supernatural usurping of anyone's body. They are the manifestation of symptoms of an illness.

Believing in demon possession is completely anachronistic in our modern day and age. It's akin to believing that thunder and lightning are created by Thor or that some evil nymph caused the brown spot on my lawn.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 312 of 319 (814516)
07-10-2017 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Diomedes
07-10-2017 1:30 PM


If demons exist you'll never be able to know it
Yes indeed, as I said already, I agree that belief in demon possession is anachronistic in our modern world, which simply hides its reality and allows it to proliferate.

There were certainly many instances of imputing physical diseases to demons before we knew the physical causes. Of course. But demons are spiritual entities, and though they do have some influence over the physical world, they affect the mind above all. They teach what the Bible calls "doctrines of demons," meaning false religious ideas in particular, but most probably also Marxism, especially considering Marx's many satan-inspired friends and some of his own writings. (And if we ever get to see the 85-plus writings of his that have never been publicly revealed I'd guess well see a lot more overt Satanism in his life as well). When there is that kind of satanic/demonic influence involved there is little doubt we're talking about those "doctrines of demons." They aim to undermine Christian influences for one thing, that's a dead giveaway. They have nothing to fear from anything other than Christ who defeated Satan at the cross, and they spend all their time trying to undo His work on earth and seduce people away from Him. It's only too understandable that as the last days grow nearer Marxism and other satanic doctrines are gaining the upper hand against the only truth which is in Christ. Marginalizing the Christians of the world is Satan's major aim, and he has an awful lot of willing servants of his cause, having propagandized them through his demonic hordes for so long, such as in the American universities since the sixties. It's depressing to be able to see through the lens of Christ what is really going on and be unable to get anyone else to see it. You have no idea.

I was raised in the standard "rationalist" way of thinking so when I became a believer in Christ in my mid forties I was shocked to find demons taken as realities in the Bible -- along with lots of other shocking surprises one can encounter in the Bible when you've just come to believe it is God's word. Original sin was a huge revelation to me, explaining all my questions about why this world is so dangerous, war-prone, how anyone could be a murderer or do harm to anyone else etc. To my mind there are no convincing meaningful answers without Original Sin.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5063
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 313 of 319 (814517)
07-10-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Faith
07-10-2017 2:22 PM


Re: If demons exist you'll never be able to know it
Faith writes:

Yes indeed, as I said already, I agree that demon possession is anachronistic in our modern world, which simply hides its reality and allows it to proliferate.

Or, it is what is appears to be, an anachronism. Just like yourself.

Epilepsy was caused by demons before we could prove not only that it had real world causes but also that we could provide real world control. Like every other area of your archaic belief system science is gradually whittling it down to a small number of deluded fundamentalists.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 2:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1578
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 314 of 319 (814518)
07-10-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Faith
07-10-2017 12:02 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:

Demon possession probably IS going up with the decline of Christianity and especially the influx of eastern pagan religions into America since the seventies.

Evidence? So, is it the declining Christians or the eastern pagans that are experiencing increased demonic possession?

Faith writes:

It's simply unrecognized because "rational" humanity denies it.

Maybe "rational humans" have never seen any evidence of demons or possession.

Faith writes:

It's probably the cause of most mental illnesses, it's certainly the cause of bizarre serial murders and many sexual aberrations

Any evidence? Any at all?

Faith writes:

and it's also very likely that the great world tyrants were possessed.

Maybe they just had shit for brains? What about the not so great tyrants?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 12:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 315 of 319 (814521)
07-10-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Stile
07-10-2017 1:22 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:

Demon possession probably IS going up with the decline of Christianity and especially the influx of eastern pagan religions into America since the seventies.

Is that a threat? Because I'm not scared.

It was meant as important information that might be of use if anyone took it seriously.

If not and you mean it as a fact... can you show me how it's true so we can do something about it?

How I wish I could. I learned about it from the New Testament itself, and learned to consider it still ongoing in the sorts of situations I listed. Proving it? Not to someone with a rationalist mindset that has never been challenged. Satan's plan for our age is to pretend he and his demons don't exist and the "rationalists" have bought it. You'd have to believe what other people have said about it and you've learned to discount a priori anything anyone says about such things, so the only way you might come to believe in them is if you experienced some kind of demonic phenomena yourself. And even then you'd be prone to explain it to yourself as something produced by your own mind. I've said a lot about my own experiences of such things so I'm pretty sure saying anything more along those lines wouldn't convince you.

If you can't show how it's true... why do you even think that it's true?

I believe the Bible for starters, believe it is the revelation of reality and truth, and the NT in particular describes demons and their relationship to Jesus who came to liberate us from them. If you dismiss the Bible, of course, you've cut yourself off from one major avenue of evidence. I also had personal experience of demonic things, which I believe I've described here a number of times, and I was privileged to hear about many similar experiences from other people. Recounting all that is the best I can do to persuade you and if that doesn't do it I guess you're stuck in your own evidence-killing prejudices.

It's simply unrecognized because "rational" humanity denies it.

I don't deny it.

Sure you do. Any time someone tries to tell you about it you discount their testimony.

I simply don't see anything that actually shows it's happening. With a complete lack of a reason to accept it... I do not accept it.

I was where you are before I became a Christian. I saw no reason to believe in God or anything supernatural. Coming to believe wasn't a rational thing, I was simply persuaded by other peoples' experiences, in my case the testimony of some Hindu gurus, that the supernatural was real, and from there I read book after book about things supernatural and religious until I knew Christianity was the truth. As for persuading anyone else, I try by describing my own testimony to these things, but in the end I can't do anything. God will have to persuade you personally, as He did me, or He'll leave you unpersuaded.

You can be the first to offer me the truth, though. Please show me a demon possession or what you think is the most-reliable-way to convince me that they actually do exist.

I've done a lot along those lines over the years at EvC. I don't have any new methods. I could point to Charlie Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer, but even there I just suspect it because of the demonic nature of their crimes and can't prove it, and why would you see demon possession in them when you've been convinced otherwise?

It's probably the cause of most mental illnesses

This is not true.
I don't know a lot about mental illness compared to a professional (like Larni).
But I do know a lot about mental illness compared to the average population in western society.
And I know more than enough to know that this is false.

Gosh you're just overflowing with ironclad evidence there aren't you? Perhaps I should adjust what I said to apply to the stranger psychoses. I probably know as much about mental illness as Larni and certainly more than you, but I'll mention one case I knew very well, my own schizophrenic brother, who heard voices and saw "signs" everywhere supposedly telling him what to do. I tried to be a help to him in the years before he died and became afraid of him because of his strange ideas. Sometimes psychotics get "commands" to murder people and that sort of thing (he told my other brother he felt he was supposed to kill one of our uncles when he was visiting us; the uncle decided to get a motel room), sometimes to kill themselves, or their children perhaps. Often they think its' God talking to them. I may extrapolate from these extremes to less dangerous ideation, but there is plenty of bizarre ideation in many mental illnesses that I think should be considered to be demon-inspired. There may also be plenty of life experiences that contribute to the problems, of course, but they provide the "permission" for demonic intervention to someone who understands how those things work.

it's certainly the cause of bizarre serial murders and many sexual aberrations

Again, no, it's not.
But you can convince me otherwise, if you can show that what you say is true. Just present your best-scenario that shows the truth of your words. I'll read it, I promise. We can talk about it.

Yeah, sure. Sorry, been down that road. Take it or leave it.

and it's also very likely that the great world tyrants were possessed.

Wrong again.

You're awfully sure of yourself for someone who has zip evidence for your assertions. You want me to prove mine but give none for yours. Typical.

Thinking that mental illness has a significant influence from demons is exactly the same thing as thinking that getting sick has a significant influence from demons.

They are both not true.

What a fount of unsupported wisdom you are.

There is one big difference though:

About getting sick: Most people understand that germs and bacteria exist and how they can infect us and cause us to get sick.

About mental illness: Most people do not understand that brains are not all exactly the same or that some people can have experiences different from others or that some people react to the same experiences differently. This failure to understand these concepts lead to a failure to understand the mundane explanations for mental illness - ie "How Brains Function."

People who were ignorant about germs and bacteria causing sickness are exactly the same as people who are ignorant about how brain functionality causes mental illness.

Just for your information. Before I was a Christian or believed in anything supernatural at all I knew a lot about psychology and I absolutely despised brain theory, imputing mental things to physical causes, which was the tack of behaviorism / behavior therapy for instance. I recognized the mind as the seat of personality in those days, and considered the brain as merely a physical vessel whose interactions with the mind were confined mostly to brain damage sorts of influences. Otherwise brain has nothing to do with how the mind works. It's just a vehicle. Then when I became a Christian I KNEW that mind and body are separate, the body the vehicle for the mind or soul. But the point is there is no need to invoke anything physical like the brain to explain psychological states. Zip.

I can show you germs and bacteria.

I can show you brain functionality and how it causes mental illness.
Can you show me anything about demon possession?

Can you show me anything about demon existence?

Talk of demons only does one thing - wastes the time that could be spent focusing on the real issue that can actually be corrected or mitigated with proper care.

Just like talk of demons only wastes time in treating people getting sick.

Funny, I'd say that focusing on physical causes wastes the important time needed to understand the supernatural nature of some phenomena. Not physical disease particularly, but mental aberrations of all kinds. Physical components do not at all eliminate spiritual causes.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 1:22 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 4:06 PM Faith has responded

    
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