Good Bible Prophecies List

Maybe you could jump into any of the already open threads discussing prophecy?Tyre is discussed here: EvC Forum: What Science is NOTAt the beginning of the thread is a discussion of what would make a good prophecy. I suggest you read it.There is Drum's list, which desperately needs a defender: EvC Forum: Drum's list of prophecies :)------------------
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1) Rarely do the founders of religions claim otherwise.2) Martyrdom is a great way to crystalize the faith.3) Some were rather well educated-- Paul for example. Some were not. Why does this matter especially?4) There wasn't really a main stream religion at the time and place. The Romans were rather irreverant and the Jews, despite-- I imagine-- your misunderstandings, were pretty powerless.5) Maybe you wouldn't mind naming which set of twelve we are talking about? The gospels don't much agree.6) Yes, because the Jews were a pain in Rome's butt, and had been for quite a few years. Anyone living at the time and in the place would have known something bad was bound to happen.7) Nero blamed the christians for the fire in Rome and probably did the sect a huge favor. He brought it into the limelight. The early christians had a going against them. Persecution has a way of backfiring though. And it did.8) Why is this relevant?------------------
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But how many have their claims/prophecies fulfilled at all

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By the same standards you set, all of them.

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let alone to the extent that it becomes the world's all time greatest?

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Christianity has never dominated the world. Right now it has about a third, and the numbers have remained the same for decades. Islam is growing at about .6% or so and ought to overtake Christianity is twenty years or so. Basically 2/3s of the world isn't buying it.

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But how many martyred to the extent of the Christians

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Christians haven't suffered all that much at the hands of the heathen. From its inception to Constantine's adopting it is a span of about three hundred years. Prior to that, persecution was sporadic at worst and after that, the persecution has predominantly been christians beating the snot out of each other. In other words, the religion is nothing special. There is plenty of persecution to go around.

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Paul was about it for education or previous influence and they hated him fiercely.

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What? Paul was about what for education, what previous influences and who hated him?

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Oh, really? So how come the Jews had sooo much power, even to the point that they could call the shots as to who of their enemies they were to have executed by themselves and the Roman rulers?

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They didn't have sooooo much power and they couldn't call the shots and pull the Roman government's strings. This crap was invented by the people who wrote the bible.

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Sorry, too busy to nitpick about lists.

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This is absolutely classic! You assert that the twelve disciples were all martyred, yet asking who exactly these people were is nit-picking?

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What's your point?

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Guessing that the Jews would piss off the Romans one too many times wouldn't have been that hard. Suppose, a few years back I had predicted that Saddam Hussein would push the US to military action. Would I be a prophet? Not really. Just a guy who was looking at what was going on around him.

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Because at the time it was given the known world was a much smaller place.

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Sure. The same is true for any institution that has spread over the world. Nothing magical about it. Populations grow and sprawl and technology makes travel easier.

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John, sounds like you really don't want to acknowledge a bonafide prophecy when you see it.

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Sounds like some fortune tellers need your phone number.------------------
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I understand that Buzsaw was refering to one prophecy, but made a list of point concerning that prophecy.

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Likelihood of fulfillment is the only issue Buzsaw was really addressing.

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I'll let PaulK defend his point. For my part, it seems Buzsaw was, or is, attempting to argue that fulfillment of this prophecy is so unlikely that it must be evidence of true foreknowledge on the part the utterer. My first response is that if you want to calculate probabilities that something will or will not succeed, you can always come up with astronomical odds against, especially after so much tims has past and so much information has been lost. Yet SOMETHING has to succeed. Some social structure will dominate. Really, what matters is the number of alternative structures vying for the dominant position. At the time christianity got its foothold, there weren't that many. The Jews had all but cut their own throats by hassling Rome. Judaism as a whole was coming apart. They'd lost the first temple and with it the ark of the covenant and hence the indwelling of God in the temple. Then the second temple went. There were splinter groups everywhere-- the pharicees and sagisees of the NT for example. Roman religion was a political game. There were several others quite similar to christianity, but christianity got lucky.------------------
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I even agreed that you answered his point, and you answered it well.

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Thank you. That is kind.It was clear that you agreed but I was happy for the chance to rephrase my argument. I wasn't happy with my earlier presentations, but I guess I never am.------------------
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Your arrows aren't yet piercing the armour of the factual stuff I've presented thus far.

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I don't think you are getting it. Your prophecy-- say, the satelite-- is such that a thousand things could fulfill it. It is on the same order as Nostradamus. Specific enough to seem meaningful but vague enough that it is guaranteed to be fulfilled eventually, if you look hard enough and interpret the prophecy until you get a match. It simply isn't convincing. And it wouldn't be convincing to you either if you didn't already believe, if it had been uttered by some other figure in a context outside your religion.Then there is the element of self-fulfillment. The 'prophecy' "That house will be painted red" doesn't count if you march over and paint it red. If, however, you seal the prophecy in an envelope and reveal the information only after the house has been painted, you may have something. The Bible is hardly a sealed envelope, so you need something very very extraordinary-- like "a volcano will erupt in some-specific-place on some-specific-date." Humans can't predict or influence volcanic eruptions so no one come claim it was self-fullfilling.------------------
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You're effectively refuting nothing I post.

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You are effectively posting nothing.

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So how about some sensible examples of how either the TV, or the Sky Angel could be fulfilled anywhere nearly as close to reality as the ones I've cited?

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Finding a fulfillment 'in reality' isn't really the point. Finding a fulfillment that resembles the prophecy in enough ways that the connection is unequivocable is the point. You haven't done this. In fact, the 'fulfillment' doesn't resempble the prophecy much at all. The text talks about angels around the throne of God. Reading the surrounding verses tells us that these angels were capable of possessing qualities such as virginity, lack-of-guile, faultlessness. They 'follow the lamb' and were 'redeemed from man' being the 'first fruits unto God.' In other words, we get a definition of 'angel' from the author. Sound like a satelite to you?Now, the verse in question... The creature is talking to every nation, and kindred, and to every people in every tongue. Does your satelite broadcast in every tongue? Does every nation hear the word? I'd be willing to be that this service doesn't exist in most of the world? I'll have to look that up. Does everyone hear the preaching? If not, it can't be the fullfillment of this prophecy.------------------
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The 144 thousand virgins are not angels. They are Jewish people, 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.

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So you say. Maybe you are right, but if you can interpret 'angel' as 'satelite,' why is it so wrong to interpret 144 thousand critters flying around the throne of God as 'angel'? And, yes, they did orbit the throne. They sang before it, and before the four beasts, and before the elders. The text never calls them 'the Jews' and in fact has them behaving very un-Jew-like-- that is, following the lamb. Remember who killed Jesus? See how easy it is to get what you want out of a prophecy this vague?

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2. The Greek word aggelon (angel) means messenger and though it usually refers to an angelic being, it can refer to another type of messenger.

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Do you believe that John saw a satellite, and having no other word for it, called it an angel? Or you you believe that John saw some human-ish creature speaking? The former option would mean that John had an atrocious command of his language and simply did not describe what he saw. The second option would mean that John saw an Angel with a capitol A, and not a satellite. Either position takes enormous liberties with the text.------------------
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