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Author Topic:   The Whole Jesus Thing
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 10 of 286 (72391)
12-11-2003 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
12-10-2003 5:39 PM


Yaro writes:
why was it thought by ancient peoples, including the Isrealits, that their gods liked burnt meat? Where did the concept come from? Any ideas guesses?
Real gods, like real men, enjoy a good barbecue.
Some gods were simply deified heroes of the past. Some gods were living, breathing persons. In fact, Moses and virtually all Israeli royals, were classed as gods. So, why would the ruling class demand that people give up the best of their livestock to pay fines for sin (infractions of the law)? Have you guessed it already?
In a primitive society, meat is money. If the people are naieve enough to believe that the sky spirit demands it, so much the better. Meanwhile, the pristhood grows in wealth and power, which it shares, of course, with the One selected to represent their God: The Priest-King.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 12-10-2003 5:39 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-11-2003 9:49 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 15 of 286 (72453)
12-12-2003 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by ConsequentAtheist
12-11-2003 9:49 PM


ConsequentAtheist writes:
By whom? According to whom?
See Exodus 7:1 and Psalm 82:6.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-11-2003 9:49 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-12-2003 6:31 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 19 of 286 (72533)
12-12-2003 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ConsequentAtheist
12-12-2003 6:31 AM


ConsequentAtheist writes:
In support of his previous:
quote:
"In fact, Moses and virtually all Israeli royals, were classed as gods."
See Exodus 7:1 and Psalm 82:6.
Not even close. You're understanding of Psalm 82:6 is particularly curious. You might wish to read it again, since it has absolutely nothing to do with "Moses and ... Israeli royals" (whatever those might be).
These passages are merely the-tip-of-the-iceberg of evidence that Hebrew use of the word 'god' was much broader than ours. I have to wonder whether you have gone beneath the surface and considered the implications of these passages.
quote:
Ex. 7:1 - And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god [elohim] to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Ps. 82:1 - God [elohim] ... judgeth among the gods [elohim].
Ps. 82:6 - I have said, Ye are gods [elohim]; ... children of the most High.
Jesus used the quote from Psalms to justify calling himself the Son of God.
quote:
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, ... Say ye ... Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
In other words Jesus says, he is making a lesser claim. Please note that Adam was also called "the son of God." Luke 3:38
Why do I say, "Israeli royals were classed as gods"?
That one is less direct but nonetheless evident in scripture.
  • Most Israeli kings incorporated a shortened form of the name of their God (YHWH) within their own name, much as did the kings of other nations with the names of their God.
  • Of at least one king (Solomon) it is plainly stated that he is a son of God. 1 Chronicles 22:10
  • Probably in reference to David, or Solomon, the psalmist writes:
    quote:
    The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    The Living Bible reads: This is your Coronation Day.
  • An alternative reading of Ps. 82:7, which in the KJV reads, "...ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes." is as follows:
    quote:
    ...ye shall fall as one man, O princes
    See footnote 'g', Revised Standard Version.
  • Elohim is also translated 'judges,' and 'angels,' both of which may be shown to be functionaries of the crown.
So far we are merely looking at Hebrew applications of the word 'elohim' which we translate as: 'god.' The occasional capitolization (God) or pluralization (gods) is done at the discretion of the translator; presumably based upon context and the translator's impression regarding which 'god' is being discussed.
It follows, of course, that a 'son of god' is himself a 'god.'
About 'the LORD' (AKA - YHWH, Yahweh, or Jehovah):
The Hebrews took YHWH to be their unique national God. He is often called, "the God of Israel" or "God of the Hebrews," and frequently he is called, "the LORD God," or "God of Hosts [armies]" Interestingly, he is never called, "the God of everyone." It is imagined, predicted, that he will become the God of everyone; just as he became the God of Israel: an event accomplished through violence.
His behaviour, and his rhetoric are characteristically Autocratic. He often calls himself a King, and on more than one occasion he is called a 'man.' All this is consistent with a political system wherein God-kings, or Priest-kings, rule in the place of God. Ancient Hebrews may have accepted this guy's claim to godhood but I do not.
'Nuff said?
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 12-12-2003 6:31 AM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Abshalom, posted 12-12-2003 1:17 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 21 of 286 (72541)
12-12-2003 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Abshalom
12-12-2003 1:17 PM


Re: Man-gods
That is all very interesting but as you say, is an alternative interpretation.
My point, of course, is that the word 'elohim' is in play here; the same word which, in the first chapter of Genesis, is descriptive of the force(s) which created the universe.
We can put all the spin we like on it, but the fact remains that the word 'elohim' is expected to make sense in all these contexts. The fact that there are so many applications of 'elohim' should give us pause in our quest to identify 'God.'
Bottom line: There is, in biblical Hebrew, no unique term specifically reserved for what moderns perceive to be God-the creator of the universe.
db
[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 12-12-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Abshalom, posted 12-12-2003 1:17 PM Abshalom has not replied

  
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