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Author Topic:   Are learned and innate the only types of behaviors?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 174 (447522)
01-09-2008 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by sinequanon
01-09-2008 3:16 PM


I want a citation that
i) ALL innate behaviours in animals are evolved behaviours
ii) ALL non-evolved behaviours are learned behaviours
Why? In Message 61 you wrote:
quote:
Nothing I have seen conflict with the existence of something in the atmosphere that is being called 'nitrogen'.
What, exactly, have you seen that conflicts with the idea that behavior is either innate or learned?
My personal evidence would go against the premise that ALL innate behaviours are evolved behaviours.
Yeah right
Would you care to expand on this personal evidence? Can you simply just say what it is?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by sinequanon, posted 01-09-2008 3:16 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by sinequanon, posted 01-09-2008 5:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 174 (447536)
01-09-2008 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by sinequanon
01-09-2008 5:08 PM


Sure, once we get those citations, I will explain how they conflict with my observations.
WEAK!
The citations don't exist and neither does your persona evidence. You're avoiding the issue because you have nothing. You're just making up crap.
I'm sorry I wasted my keystrokes on you.
Get back under the bridge, troll.

You know, you could just assume, for the sake of argument, that the citations have been provided and then tell us your observation.
But that would require that you actually do have something, which I realize you do not.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by sinequanon, posted 01-09-2008 5:08 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 174 (447900)
01-11-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by sinequanon
01-11-2008 9:42 AM


Learning requires experience. Drugs can enable you to envisage new solutions of which you have no experience.
The crows were not taking drugs.
You're saying their behavior was not necessarily either learned or evolved.
By what other mechanism could they exhibit this behavior?
All you are doing is bitching about the proposed ones, but you haven't provided anything better.
What is the other option besides learned or evolved!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 9:42 AM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 11:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 174 (447938)
01-11-2008 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by sinequanon
01-11-2008 11:39 AM


Any contamination/mutation of food source could cause enforced ingestion of foreign substances.
(I recall a report about birds getting drunk on rotting fruit. It said the sugar was turning to alcohol).
Do you honestly think that that is a plausible mechanism?
That is, that there is some foreign substance in the nuts that makes the crows find the optimum drop height.
I'll grant you that it is not impossible, and I did ask, so thanks. But, seriouly, do you think that is in any way plausible?
Or do you like it only because it is not-learned and not-evolved? You know, because you're biased against those being the only options...

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 11:39 AM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 2:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 174 (447953)
01-11-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
01-11-2008 1:19 PM


Drunk Squirrel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 01-11-2008 1:19 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-11-2008 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 174 (447979)
01-11-2008 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by sinequanon
01-11-2008 2:31 PM


me writes:
You're saying their behavior was not necessarily either learned or evolved.
By what other mechanism could they exhibit this behavior?
Any contamination/mutation of food source could cause enforced ingestion of foreign substances.
Do you honestly think that that is a plausible mechanism?
That is, that there is some foreign substance in the nuts that makes the crows find the optimum drop height.
The behavior in question is finding the optimum drop height. The scientist concluded that the behavior was learned or evolved. You claim that it could be something other than learned or evolved. When pressed for what it could be, you claim it could be from ingestion of foreign substance.
My question now is:
Do you honestly think that the crow's behavior of finding the optimum drop height could be comming from the ingestion of foreign substances?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 2:31 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 3:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 174 (447982)
01-11-2008 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by sinequanon
01-11-2008 2:36 PM


What I see with my own eyes tells me that learned and evolved behaviours are NOT the only options for behaviour.
Bullshit.
You haven't seen anything with your own eyes that suggests that.
If you did, you would have shared it by now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 2:36 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 174 (447987)
01-11-2008 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by sinequanon
01-11-2008 3:18 PM


Do you honestly think that the crow's behavior of finding the optimum drop height could be comming from the ingestion of foreign substances?
Yes. Enforced change in diet at some point in their history, inducing such a change in behaviour is perfectly possible.
I admitted it was possible, it just doesn't seem plausible.
How can this induction of a change in behavior be in all the crows if it comes from the diet? All the crow would have to be eating the same foreign substance and it would have to affect them all in the same way.
This possibility does not explain the phenomenon better than the one that postulates that the behavior is learned or evolved.
So I guess I was correct when I said in Message 125:
quote:
Or do you like it only because it is not-learned and not-evolved? You know, because you're biased against those being the only options...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 3:18 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 3:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 174 (448002)
01-11-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by sinequanon
01-11-2008 3:38 PM


I can't get over realizing that you are just grabbing at anything you can think because you want there to be a non-learned, non-evolved mechanism.
I have no interest of discussion of that nature.
It is preposterous to suggest that there is something in the nuts that allows the crows to find the optimum height. And that this is a non-learned, non-evolved behavior.
The crows are on drugs, that's how they find the optimum height.
Basically, I'm not going to argue with you that the sky is not green.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 3:38 PM sinequanon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 5:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 174 (448012)
01-11-2008 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by sinequanon
01-11-2008 5:08 PM


We can just debate our opinions, get to a point of irreducible difference and leave it there, in a dignified fashion. No need to sign off with a rant, at all.
I don't think you're being honest in your arguments.
You just want to oppose evolution...
You're a troll and I'm an asshole so you can expect more rants from me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by sinequanon, posted 01-11-2008 5:08 PM sinequanon has not replied

  
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