Ken Ham's Creation Museum

Well, the Christian Cult of Ignorance is pretty smart when it comes to keeping their asses out of court. I imagine that it will be "Educational" until the first lawsuit when they will duck behind the protection of "Religion".After all, the history of the Christian Cult of Ignorance has been that getting sued or having criminal charges filed is really just another revenue stream. Then they can get the same folk to cough up even more money for defense funds et al.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

---

If this is supposed to be an educational institution and not a religious institution, does that mean that it leaves Ken open to lawsuits because of selling false information

---

That's a good point RAZD. I certainly would like to see someone test his "museum". But I believe you're right, he will always have a fallback position - the protected comfort zone of organized religion.

But Buzz, if one went to a place like that to learn one is already buying into the the chance that it is true.Anyone who is older than ten and thinks dinos coexisted with humans can't take learnig very seriously, or has had the bible rammed down their throats from a young age.I say close the place down, it's an affront to our collective intelligence.

The problem is how to do it so that it doesn't play to the poor martyr complexes ...I think organized mockery might be the key: bus loads of university students to make fun of the displays for their outright lies and misinformation.

---

Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)

---

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

As soon as they play the Religion Card over here they are home free. That protection for his scams and the almost unlimited supply of gullible Christian Cult of Ignorance members willing to part with their hard earned money are the two big reasons he moved his operation here.As long as he doesn't get TOO greedy, reports all the income and pays taxes on it, he is free to take as much money from the Christian Cult of Ignorance as they will part with.We need to remember that Biblical Creationists are just handicapped and while we might well see how pitiful they are, understand that it is not their fault they are taken in by all the con man televangelists.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I quite agree.It's one thing avoid religion in a social situation so every one can get along, but this kind of religious idiocy deserves the full back hand of ridicule.

I guess that's why I get all wound up over things like this: my natural instinct is to want to get these people back on track with reality.If I see a distorted thought I really need to challenge it

What might it
Creation, Science, Bible History, & Dinosaurs | Creation Museum
be a museum of? Regardless---what might one learn?? Ken Ham | Answers in Genesis For me it not about whether it is a “museum” but what might the “exhibits” enable one to imagine?? This is NOT a museum of natural history for me, despite its appearance and name. It is a display of creatures from the western frontier of NY, a presentation of local biodiversity and illustration of “surface forms” as Kant wrote of it in the Critique of the Judgment. This however may not be what the child or student or even professional takes from it. After seeing the British Museum I had more respect for my Granddads labels on the specimens which often provided MORE information than any museum. For me it showed me how many different forms of creatures I had to imagine to become a biologist. It provided me with an insight on what to expect in the tropical world. The tropics did not seem to possess any but a spectral difference.If you were led to the Ontario Science Center you would see Page Not Found | Ontario Science CentreAccess deniedI was not led astray "at this museum" by the display of science books AND Dawkins Selfish gene popping out for me, there.
Access deniedThe little bit I saw of the British Museum was not in the exhibits for me but in the words attached to the exhibits to which I found not very helpful ... for my imagination about the relation of dinosaurs to reptiles ((the simple pterosaur) skeleteon at the Clemson Geolgy museum did that for me, much later).AMNH was disappointing because I brought a 4-H herpetology club there and because of the way the exhibits were postioned around the hall various things that I been able to teach were rapidly dissipated as the members SPREAD OUT both within and beyond the hall and only focued on “key” exhibits. This was not creation vs evolution information I had taught but strictly things that would have been debated among herpetologists. I found some the exhibits which focused the attention on certain species to be disabling.=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
So the question of AIG’s is not about what the looks of the book store may impart to the vistor (visible in this video)or what cost buys into the change that it was true but what *image* will remain for the vistor who truly tries to “interact” or learn with the exhibits, given individual differences.Accoridng to this page Ken Ham | Answers in Genesis ImaGINE THIS:

quote:

---

Biblical Authority Room

---

That Chirstianity making one moral is all that one needs to believe provided one has Russell idea that belief in a proposition is true or false and NOT what James was suggesting at Harvard thus working out Kant’s question of if the trainbearer or torchbearer of the conflict of faculities via the university not silenced thus facilitating the modern discussion of “scopes” legally under distributive justice within a period of time LONG enough to reflect. Long enough to read my “product” WEB DU BOIS .doc at the bottom of
http://aexion.org/product.aspx

quote:

---

Starting Points

---

Starting Points

quote:

---

Same facts, but different views . Why?” Throughout the room, a variety of exhibits demonstrate that we all have the same facts”the same fossils, the same universe, the same rocks, the same plants and animals, the same apes and humans. With each of these “same facts,” however, there are two different views.
The different views are based on different starting points - Man’s Reason or God’s Word.

---

This clearly places one in Kant’s Conflict of the Faculities, perhaps the museum is nothing but what oppression Kant experienced while he wanted to discuss Vital Forces seperatly combined in THE ONE BOOK.

quote:

---

Culture in Crisis

---

“neutral science”? Russell on “truth”It is not the external vision As this would not look significantly different than secular PRI
Click for full size image
PRI
which had to sell part of it's total look to a “massage” school It is the person's horizon in crisis constructed differently by different people according to Kant’s logic as enhanced by Russell.
Between these two next rooms

quote:

---

The Wonders Room

---

quote:

---

Wonders of Creation

---

One works out whatever thoughts one began and allows the rest of the exhibits to unverslize the images as they are presented.
AT

quote:

---

Dinosaur Dig Site

---

I would find hopefully
the entire issue of dinos and birds being written in the direction perpendicular to my avatar otherwise than as it continues to land me under ground than along the dark black line and under water today.Perhaps I would think about
Dominion etc.

quote:

---

Counsel with many advisors

---

If one has questions they could now be addressedAND HERE

quote:

---

The death march of the horseshoe crab

---

I would think
How the form remained the same for so long (both literal and figurative) despite the idea that there have been so many dino type changes reflected on during the tour before me etc.

quote:

---

Exhibit Update”Tower of Babel

---

Confusion of language etc. Chimp vs Human debateOn reading Russell some more yesterday, I now understand why Chomsky had poster of the man on entrance to his space at MIT. I saw directly on the page how what Chomsky did with Brackets ““ Russell had rather in “(“ paraentheses. Perhaps I followed Derrida a bit prematurely but these two extra lettered composition means can are often not noticed. They are not noticed on the web much yet especially as we can, here on EVC, hide them in BB codes.I had called Ken before a lot of the designs for the Museum had been finished and I tried to find out if they might be interested in my own visions for what phantoms need to be ~universalized but I was not what he was looking for. He wanted someone who could produce a more large theme park feel. I guess that was correct. My focus on shapes and angles would probably tend to clutter his own vision. Ken and crew chose to work aournd the 7 Cs instead.The ICR “museum” worked for me to create this power pointhttp://aexion.org/product.aspx
business speech.pptEdited by Brad McFall, : ~

The thing is Brad, it is teaching things that are factually wrong. It is doing this to children who will take away a feeling of awe and wonder (kids like dinosuars) that may stay with them for life.If these kids grow up to take their kids to such waste of space 'exhibits' this trend of disinformation will go on and on.Surely no one of intellectula honesty wants that to happen?

Hi Brad,I read through your tome of a post twice and I am struggling to work out what it is you are trying to say. Is it just me? I can't work out what your stance on this subject is and I'm not sure what you have added to the discussion. I think you are defending the "Museum", but I simply can;t be sure from anything you have said.

quote:

---

What might it
Creation, Science, Bible History, & Dinosaurs | Creation Museum
be a museum of? Regardless---what might one learn??

---

According to that site, this is a:

quote:

---

“walk through history” museum

---

The vast majority of people replying to this discussion believe it is certainly NOT a "walk through history", unless it is possible to have more than one history. There is NO evidence that dinosaurs ever lived at the same time as humans. Even "Answers in Creation" have stated that: http://www.answersincreation.org/...20050509_takingdinos.htmIf the stock answer (defense) by AiG is: "We weren't there to 'see it' for ourselves, so anything could be true", then that's no justification for a museum that spreads what is otherwise false information. It certainly could not be classified as "educational" on that basis.If you're suggesting that this "museum" is a place to assist young people to "imagine" then you're saying it's more an art gallery than a history museum - but still, it bills itself as the latter. Which is it to be? I believe that Ken Ham firmly believes it is the latter and nothing to do with art and imagination.The reality is that EVERY child is born an Atheist. Without parental and outside interference (including people shoving a Bible under his/her nose), there is ZERO chance that this child could come to find, know and love Jesus. If that child was reared on the Star Wars movies, he/she would believe in The Force and avoid the Dark Side.If God was real, HE would impart his OWN glory on his people - not talk through an often proven to be corrupt human spokesperson.

I did end up posting the outline in a hurry. Sorry for that. I was meant to be a perspective of what one might imagine as one "walks" the property. I had intended to include differences of views on "truth" from Russell's vs James' perspective (the confusion of propostional functions and propositions while deciding what can be said to be "true" or "false", when we commonly say , "I believe x,y,z). This I will do in response to Larni. That would have made the post twice as long ( I was starting to combine the pictures offline to conserve on space but in the end real time caught up with my own sense of "virtual" time).Yes I am trying to "defend" it in a way. I know this has not been the tone of this thread. I wanted to make it clear that evolution musuems themselves can also mislead the vistor. What one needs to start with is the person who still has an open mind, as if there was such a thing. If the student is smart they will never take what they hear as true based on authority ( I was surpised how Gould relates how he was feeling bad about Goldshimdt being the "whipping boy" but that he did not object. When Will Provine said things about "free will" that I disagreed with him on, I was not afraid to tell hims so. This may have cost me some place at Cornell but it was the better and probably truer thing for me to have done. When I disagreed with Simon I told them so. This is not where the problem comes in, it only comes in when one tries to substitute what one is told with something else. I am not imagining the visitor to go out and create a museum in response but simply to have the walk through cause questions to arise and imaginations to be fired up, such that some mental resolution is afforded in part due to the display itself. The universialization of the exhibits is not what I am defending I am only trying to present that an "image" may remain neither particularized nor generalized that rids the viewer of "phantoms" in the process of imagining/learning/interacting.So, the past tone in this thread is, in my own way of expression saying something like AIG is creating more phantoms than it is dissolving. To decide this one way or the other one needs to get a vision of the what the walkthrough would Gestalt or impress on the walker. This will depend on the various backgrounds of the participants obviously. For instance otherwise, I still have never developed a sense of dinosaurs as birds because my visual series of amphbians to reptiles takes up too much "" of my occipital cortex no matter whether I have a triune brain or not.

quote:

---

unless it is possible to have more than one history.

---

Well, I dont think this is quite right. I think that the notion of "contingency" is being used differently by evos than creos. It can not be that there is more than one actual history. I do think that evos are finding that there is a second wall against evolution within academia rather than admitting to a potential social utility of a double theoretical model plausibility. It has been hard enough for secular evolutionists within universities to argue for their own science correlated to events than to double the discussion with dual correlation discussion of the same materials. Both sides are to blame for this state of caused social redress. AIG's "musuem" is an institutional outlet for the claim that some good can come from the continued criticism of evolutionary thinking. I understand that many here on EVC think otherwise. From my own understanding of resistance within academia to alternative ideas I find that only an external see saw will change this state (evos will continue to be too preoccpied within their own walls to see the seal has already been made) I do not advocate politcal action however. I think education is the better way. I think this is what ICR decided long ago.There may be a point that Larni and perhaps Dawkins would like to make but seeing how he Richard responded to the likes of Kurt Wise in Adminmooseses link it is the very duplicty of thinking that bothers Richard. But I think this doubleminded thought is only a mature one. The young vistor simply has not decided about some particulars either way. This is the participant that one should imagine walking through. But my position is that we will need to see more Wise's on the creation side before the cultural phenomenon can play out its last act. Terrorism is only making this destination one of prolongation rather than simple behavioral modification.Yes, Ok, I was born an atheist"" but look, It took me only a few pages of writing at the age of about 14 to realize that it makes no sense to START that way, because IF GOD exists he could simply alter any atheist design I as a scientist could find and defend plasuibly. There is no reason to play dice except to learn about infinite induction.I have not attempting to become actually a part of ICR or AIG anymore precisely becuase of the "well it it was in the past no one can "get" it" attitude. You can know that I wrote to Henery Morris asking if he wanted to collaborate with me on "predicting" the gaps of evolution but by then Gould had already muddied the waters by taking this domain of disjuntion for his own purposes. The seperation is larger for the creationist than any evolutionist I know of but only the difference of continuity vs disjunction is what is discussed else all becomes "a digitial" thing etc.As for the direct dino and man thing again, well... I got started with herpetology because contrary to Gould who liked the giant dino fossils I could not stand the things because there was no way to try to figure them out because they were all bones. Actual reptiles and amphibians were said to be their relatives and I could walk outside and pick them up. I got three genera of salamanders (Plethodon, Eucrycea, Desmognathus) in 15 minutes yesterday for instance. So for me is birds vs herps living with dinos that is the issue no matter how many footprints are faked or on display. AMNH had a huge Komodo Dragon display which prevented students from reading the details of other displays. Size is not all that matters. Man doesnt matter either, Life does...As for "outside" interference I had my grandparents who were still atheists or agnostics or converts from Christianity and my partents who were believers or reacted to my grandparents. It can not be said that I had "interference" I had a choice and I chose the creatures that could answer for me. It was not authority of man nor the somethimes worship I do do.My youngest brother "Was" reared on "Star WARS" but 'the dark side' is simply Europe for him and video gameing and being less religious than my other brother who also is PHD physicist but was not young enough to have Star Wars around for all the times of his youth.Now it seems you have raised the issue of special vs general revelation. THe last time I tried to work on that I found that I simply had to reject Locke which I had already done on purely historical trajectories in science readings reasons.Does this help??Edited by Brad McFall, : not

Hi Brad,You've been on EVC a lot longer than I have and also have partaken in a lot more discussions here and I fully respect that. On the subject of Ham's new Museum, could you tell me (because I couldn't work out if you'd answered it yet):1. Do you believe in Ham's concept that dinosaurs and Man lived in the same age? I mean Brontosauruses, T-Rex's etc and modern man (i.e. post-Adam and Eve)2. Is it reasonable that without any real evidence that Ham's concept should be "pushed" in the guise of an educational Museum?3. Do you believe the income generated by the "museum" for all the US$60 entry fees (for a family of two adults and two young children) should be taxed? And will it? (entry prices here: Missing Link | Answers in Genesis )Edited by spasms, : grammatical error

As a third post in this series you deserve a better response. I am working up a more detailed answer to each of your points but it is taking some time as I relate Haeckel on Darwin's chorology, Gould on Darwin's diversity and the difference at nonessential and essential age in the creationist percept of creation with the appearence of age.
If the image retained from going through AIG's property is:

quote:

---

ig.com.br

---

then I have no problem paying the entrance fee.

.......Or as is with me, does not buy into the claim that radiometric dating is empirically infallible and that science is absolutely sure as to the properties of the atmosphere, et al millions and billions of years ago. I am as sure that they co-existed as you are they did not. Does that make you as more serious about learning than I or does that imply that my learning has led me in a different direction than yours. I have researched evidence for the credibility of the Biblical record and have applied that to my interpretation of what the two of us have studied and observed in science and application of the basic scientific laws to our beliefs. You need to close down the Constitution first in order to allow for this to happen. Are you sure that's what you want to do -- toss the Constitution into the recycle/trash bin?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Sorry Brad, if you don't start talking sense I'll be bailing out of this pointless discussion. The three images you provided above and the link to a spanish site are just meant to confuse. Is that your aim?Is it just me or can other people clearly understand what Brad is trying to say in his three posts in this thread? I must be stupid.