Religion in Government

Yes rhain, I am a god.

I put the democrats in square brackets because you can insert whatever political party you want here. Right now you (whatever) want there to be a more streamlined voting process in the Senate so that your party which is in power can push through whatever legislation it wants. One of the main points of the Senate is to slow down the political process so that we don't have hasty government action on issues which might be very transient. When the Democrats control all three branches of government you will be very thankful for the filibuster. I think it was George Washington who said something to the effect of: The Senate is the plate upon which the emotions of the nation are allowed to cool.It is my opinion that the filibuster is never an abuse of power, it is a legal tactic used by those who are _NOT_ in power to prevent abuse by those in power.

riVerRat,Please read this post in the spirit it is intended. I am not trying to attack you or your beliefs. I understand your hesitation against allowing the marriage contract to be extended to be between any two people because of your religious convictions and I can understand your reluctance to continue the debate. I think that Rrhain did bring up a good question to address the moral qualms you may have with the whole thing which you may not have noticed (his posts can be quite long and repetitive). Perhaps it would be sufficient for your conscience to realize that you already support things with your tax dollars which your god may not approve of. Since everyone will get their reckoning when they stand before Him perhaps you would better spend your time making sure that you are ready to answer for your deeds rather that worrying about your neighbor’s actions which in no way affect you.

Yes, and I kind of agree with that. But should I worry about stealing if my neigbhours house gets broken into?
Should I worry about the thief, whether we catch him or not?Jesus taught me to give to someone if he trys to steal from me, he even says give him more than that. I agree with that.But Jesus was the biggest upholder of the law. They tried to trick him many times about the law, because they were looking for a way to kill him. So if something is against the law, I should there for worry about it. Only because we get to make up the laws.What I do not have to worry about is if that person who breaks the law, is going to get into heaven or not.Deuteronomy 6
24 The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."Deuteronomy 26:16
The LORD your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.Joshua 1
7 Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the LORD your God will be with you wherever you go."Matthew 5
16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.The Fulfillment of the Law17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.The word Law is mentioned 662 times in the bible. ALthough not every reference is pertaining to laws, like criminal, most of them are. WE are to keep the law.In the spirit of Matthew 7:12 I would not expect to be understood if I was gay. Nor would I expect to be married like the way straight people are. You may not believe me, but thats fine too.Also I must add its not soley based on my religious convictions.I am truley sorry if people hate me for the way I feel. But at least I am honest. I will say it again, I don't hate them, I have many friends who are gay, and they understand my beliefs. I have discussed it with them openly.I just briefed over a link that shows the history of law. I do not know how accurate it is, but I'm sure it is close.
Duhaime's LawMuseum | Legal History | Law Artifacts and Historical Documents As you can see, religious law was always a big part of the legal systems throughout the world.Here is another web page that explains why some of the settlers came to America in the first place.
America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 1 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)They were escaping religious persecution. Not religion.The government writes laws, laws originally came from religion. So when we ask the question does religion have a place in government, I would have to say yes. Its there already even if it doesn't specify so.I have learned a lot through out this discussion, but this one did not change my mind. It only helped me to see more clearly what I already believed in.If we choose to ignore the past, because we are "more advanced" now, we are doomed to make the same mistakes all over again.Thanks for speaking to me in a kind way.Happy fathers day all.

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But should I worry about stealing if my neigbhours house gets broken into?
Should I worry about the thief, whether we catch him or not?

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You absolutely should be worried about stealing, it could happen to you. Someone could break into your house and take your possessions or worse do harm to your family. It is unlikely that anyone will attempt to perform a marriage of you with another man, unless you invite them to do so.And in this I find the difference. We have laws against theft and murder not because it is laid down in some religious text but because logic tells us that this is wrong. In fact if you go to the link you provided ( Duhaime's LawMuseum | Legal History | Law Artifacts and Historical Documents ) you will notice that Justinian's Code was "inspired by logic-based Greek legal principles" and Many legal maxims still in use today are derived from Justinian's Code.. Those things in which consenting adults are involved are not crimes in my book. Of course the fact that we have a Vice Squad shows that the government doesn't agree with me.

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They were escaping religious persecution. Not religion.

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And I would imagine that most people who are not opposing legalizing gay marriage see it as a form of religious persecution. The first settlers were trying to escape religious persecution but they brought it with them.Anyway, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

Speaking of early settlers in what became the US Actually, only a small minority of the early settlers coming to the new world had any religious reasons for coming at all. The only overtly religious groups were the upper New England Pilgrims and they came not for religious freedom but rather a chance to set up a system of religious intolerance.The vast majority of the settlers came for pure economic reasons. If you look at the charters granted they were almost all simple grants of land and rights with a piece going back to the crown. This is true whether you are looking at English, Dutch, French, Spanish, Scandinavian or any other group.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Well, you're not god, so how the hell do you know if what they're doing goes against god?

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Yes rhain, I am a god.

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Nice try. That was my argument to you.But let's assume that you, too, are a god.You once made a claim that all gods are one. We have just proven that claim to be false. I am not you and you are not me and yet, we are both gods.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to bob_gray98:

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Yes, and I kind of agree with that. But should I worry about stealing if my neigbhours house gets broken into?

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But your neighbor's house wasn't broken into. Why are you persecuting someone who hasn't done anything wrong?Once again, you are equating being gay to things like theivery, drug dealing, and murder. Those things have victims. The person who is subjected to having his items stolen, falls into addiction, or loses his life does not want those things to happen to him.A gay person, on the other hand, wants another gay person to fall in love with and have sex with. Nobody is harmed.It's a very simple question for you: If the people who are directly involved with what happened don't have a problem with what happened, why are you so upset?You may think it goes against everything that god stands for, but if none of those people are complaining, why do you feel it is your place to stop them from doing it? It doesn't affect you in any way, shape, or form unless you insert yourself into their business.

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They were escaping religious persecution.

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And now you seek to reinstate that religious persecution by denying to gay people equal access to all laws specifically because of your religious attitudes. Why does your religious organization get to be the law of the land and not mine?

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So when we ask the question does religion have a place in government, I would have to say yes. Its there already even if it doesn't specify so.

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The fact that it is there doesn't mean it is right that it should be, wouldn't you say? We are a nation of laws and our laws specifically state that government cannot be based upon religious justification. Wouldn't a violation of those laws be wrong?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Can you provide some links that explain this.
Can you prove that they weren't religious either.
So I can learn.

Heh, that's a funny way to put it.I like nowadays how so many Christians claim they're being "oppressed" because we won't allow them to oppress others. As though the principle of tolerance mandates tolerance for intolerance.

The difference is I am a god with a small "g"Psalms 82
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

Did You Know?As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court
you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each
one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ..
it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!DID YOU KNOW?As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors
have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.DID YOU KNOW?As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!DID YOU KNOW?There are Bible verses etched in stone all over
the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.DID YOU KNOW?James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."DID YOU KNOW?Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".DID YOU KNOW?Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher,
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.DID YOU KNOW?Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members
of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.DID YOU KNOW?Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority
and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law .
an oligarchy ...
the rule of few over many.DID YOU KNOW?The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything
we have done for 220 years in this country is now
suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?
..Thank you!!Chamber, US House of Representatives

Yes...but there is hope that one day those problems will be fixed.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

riverrat, please do not cut and paste unacknowledged information from another site.There are many sites where this has been copied but here is one that seems a good candidate for your c&p job...ultreya.com :: this domain is for saleDID YOU KNOW...this is against Forum GuidelinesNow, on to the claims.At the back entrance to the supreme court building are three statue of eastern law givers, Solon, Moses, and Confucius. All three are facing forward.Tablets carved into the doors of the Supreme Court courtroom are generally believed to represent the Bill of Rights.On the wall above where the SCOTUS judges sit is a frieze that includes two male figures that represent the Majesty of Law and the Power of Government. Between these figures is a tablet with roman numerals 1 through 10 that,according to the artist, represents the Bill of Rights.I would like documentation of the Madison and Henry quotes. I can find nothing.The chaplaincy of the US Senate was established in 1789.Constitutional framers religious backgrounds...
Congregationalist-7
Deist-1
Dutch Reformed-2
Episcopalian-26
Lutheran-1
Methodist-2
Presbyterian-11
Quaker-3
Roman Catholic-2Evidences of faith and religion in buildings and monuments in the U.S.Capitol-Truth!, Fiction, & Unproven! - Truth or Fiction?Actually I addressed this issue in depth when I first started posting here and do not feel like digging out the documentation yet again. Maybe later this week.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com

Hahahahahahahahaha!One time, I was attending a bible study meeting with my g/f (I was straight back then). I know, that was a bad move on my part to date a christian fundi. Anyhow, the reverend at the time started talking about religious intolerance christians faced in the NT and all of that. Then, the discussion slowly got steered to the "abomination of homosexuality". The guy basically said that they needed to save this country by not allowing such abomination such as gay rights to exist and all that crap. What amazed me was that he kept refering christians who intolerate others as the victims. I was surrounded by fundies, so I just kept my mouth shut. But I really wanted to ask him this question: How the hell are these christians victims if they are the ones that are trying to oppress others? Why the fudge was he complaining if he was they were the ones that wanted to oppress others?I know that the following statement is probably an unnecessary generalization, but christian fundies have some kind of sexual attraction toward the idea of playing the victims even though they make victims out of others.

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The Laminator

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