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Author | Topic: Problems with the first life | |||||||||||||||||||||||
coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
tubi417 writes:
Let me outline our current generally accepted abiogenesis model.
Alright lets pretend that somehow a cell was formed in a primative ocean. quote: Lets say that this cell somehow because of "chemicals" has all the necessary organelles(and the chances of this happening are.......).
What the heck are you talking about? Many many many things today don't have any organelle at all. Why demand that the first life must have all organelles?
The first life you think would be pretty fragile, yet because there had to have been no oxygen in the atmosphere there obviously would NOT be an ozone layer.
According to our currently accepted model, the first life started in the ocean. Plenty of protection there.
Without an ozone layer this cell would receive heavy doses radiation from the sun- obviously this would kill it.
There is also another possibility. We think that the first life on earth were actually the archaea domain. They are extreme bacteria living in extreme areas, like hyperthermal vents deep in the ocean that sometimes get hotter than a hundred degrees, volcanically active regions, deep below the earth's surface where there's no sunlight and the bacteria are dependent on non-organic minerals only, and the polar ice caps. Who knows? For all we know, there once could have existed a form of life that could withstand that much solar radiation.
Lets say that it magically survives and somehow this cell mutated so that it magically mastered many essential life process-for example-
Again, you are making an unfounded assertion. In order for something to be alive, it has to have the essential processes that life possess, such as a metabolism. Otherwise, it's not alive.
Protein Synthesis- It had to have a mutation that would create mRNA and somehow a mutation to get it to the right place and somehow another mutation for the tRNA to develope and so on. If one of these "mutations" that created the process of protein synthesis was wrong- lets say the tRNA was brought to the vacuole- the cell DOES NOT survive.
You are describing a eukaryotic cell. The first life on earth were prokariotes.
Somehow this cell also had a mutation that caused it to be able to reproduce asexually- if it didn't have this mutation- we wouldn't be here right now.
If it can't produce, it's not alive. Therefore, it was a given in the first place. In some experiments, precells have been known to divide through fusion. There is no reason to believe that the first cells couldn't reproduce the same way.
Lets say that chemicals in this primitive ocean make millions and millions of cells complete with all organelles- NOT from asexual reproduction but because of some kinda chemical reaction.
What the fuck are you talking? This assertion doesn't even begin to make any sense.
How likely is it that one of these cells is going to have a mutation for the process of protein synthesis? A mutation that would create anything beneficial to the cell? If any of these cells had a mutation they would probably die.
If you go back and start making sense of yourself, we can go on to this point. Before then, I don't think any explanation we have can help. If you want to have a steak for dinner, you must first realize that you have to go out to the supermarket to get some meat. Can't make a steak by just assuming that it will already be on the table waiting for you to devour it. Get my drift? The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
jar writes:
I think he was refering to how the specific density of liquid water allow solid water to float, thus protecting life in cold regions. Actually, the density of water is 1 because we said it is. The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Hahahahahaha
The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Actually, I just thought of a good argument for the creationist... Good God! I just found a tick on my leg! Just came back from the forest. Need to shower immediately.
The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
ps writes:
Thanks Somehow, I have completely missed this possibility. Dosing of the first cell or pre-cells with radiation would have increased mutation/breakage/rearrangement rate in the nucleic acids of those cells, thus potentially accelerating evolution.
Edited to change the last word in the previous sentence from point to possibility. This message has been edited by Lam, 07-15-2004 02:41 AM The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
dandon83 writes:
I see that you are new, so I am going to go easy on you, for now. If we accept that life had been exist due to some chemical reactoins ;we -surely-will face the truth that the earth age is too short to be enough .Such reactions (that can creat a such various complicated organisms)will take many many multiples of earth time (if it could be realy). Would you mind telling us how you got such an idea? Some probability math work would be just fine. The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
dandon83 writes:
Ok, then explain how you arrived at your conclusion. Thank you LAM but I prefer that you would be just scientific . and thank you for your kindness. The Laminator
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Sorry gbunty, but I'm afraid you're going to have to do the research yourself. I'm an old fashion college science student who doesn't do much research online. I don't trust most of the sources online, so I tend to go for books. I'll dig out some stuff on the subject later .
The Laminator For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
jrtjr1 writes:
I'm not an internet person. I got my info through the old fashioned way, sitting in college classes and take down notes.
and, by the way, where did you get it}
Under the right conditions we can see that some of the same metals mix together in, somewhat, the same way as they are found in the material found in this laptop.
You are using a false analogy fallacy. If we throw down a bunch of two-inch sticks, we can see that some letters form with out intervention... Nowhere in the theory of abiogenesis did it say that under the right condition will a T-rex come to be from the primordial soup. That's what your analogy implied, that windows can come into being from scraps of metal. The theory of abiogenesis and the theory of evolution (2 completely different disciplines in biology) only apply to organic matter and living things... and possibly to other things like memes.
You say, Ah, but wait, there is a difference between your laptop and a living cell
Your point is?
Your right, but before that cell was alive it was just a collection of amino acids, monomers of proteins, ATP, and a whole bunch of other organic molecules
So, if we are to believe, have faith in, evolution we must be willing to believe that all thing that show both organization, and complexity could come into existence with out intelligent design. After all the most organized, and complex thing in this universe, a single cell, did.
Um... no. A prokaryotic cell (which is believed to be the first living thing in the world) is not complex at all. I recommend a simple biology course at your local college.
Sorry, That take more blind faith then I have.
Um... you claimed before that you liked science, yet you don't really know how science works.
If, it is logical for me to look at a simple Laptop computer and say, Hay, Someone must have put a lot of thought into designing this then, would it not be just as logical to look at, the much more complex, cell and say, Gee, Someone must have put a lot of thought into designing this
False analogy, again. What you just demonstrated was not logic. You used common sense, which can't be trusted in some things. If you truly like science, you should have known to leave a blank spot in your book of knowledge if you don't know how something came to be rather than automatically have faith in an intelligent designer. By the way, it seems that you have a grossly oversimplified understanding of how science works. The Laminator We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Percy writes:
That's why I tried to make it clear that the model I presented is only one of many models and that this is the one that is most generally accepted for now. I haven't read Lam's reply yet and so don't know what he's arguing, but I would urge you to be skepical of any claims that we have any satisfactory answers to the puzzle of the origin of life. The simple truth is the theory of abiogenesis is still in its sketchy infancy compared to the theory of evolution. The Laminator We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
That's cool.
The Laminator We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!
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