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Author Topic:   Mormons
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 117 (126114)
07-20-2004 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by PecosGeorge
07-20-2004 9:21 PM


Re: Christ
quote:
[Christ] is the center and author of the bible. It is by him, for him, and about him. Without the book, no directives.
For the fundamentalist, the book is the authority while God's creation is secondary. No matter what God wrote in the rocks, the literalist will instead adhere to the writings of man. The creationist focus has moved away from the teachings of the Bible, and instead they focus on their own need for a literal Genesis. They worship a book instead of the creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-20-2004 9:21 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 117 (126149)
07-21-2004 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by PecosGeorge
07-19-2004 11:13 PM


Re: A cult
The measure for cults is simple. Whenever Christ is not the center of the religion, it is a cult.
i do hope this is a joke.
an actual measure of a cult is one such system of belief that places a human being at the center of a religion, often ascribing him immortality even after his death.
by all definitions, christianity is a cult.
the church of lds is actually LESS of a cult, because they tend to focus less on christ and more "heavenly father." and they have not replaced the "word of god." the old and new testaments in their entirety can be found in any mormon bible.
And it don't matter how nice the people are.
actually, it does.
quote:
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-19-2004 11:13 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-21-2004 3:25 PM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 117 (126150)
07-21-2004 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by PecosGeorge
07-20-2004 9:21 PM


Re: Christ
Christ is the center and author of the bible. It is by him, for him, and about him. Without the book, no directives.
um. no. try again.
and how do you know that anyways? how do you know he wasn;t behind any other texts?
christ appears so many times in the book of mormon it would be a difficult task to count them. they, however, don't focus on christ as much as they do god. which, in my opinion, is a GOOD thing.
fundamentalist christians like to worship christ, who was made in the image of god. that's called idolatry, and is specifically against god's commandments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-20-2004 9:21 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-21-2004 3:30 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 43 by Mike_King, posted 07-21-2004 6:18 PM arachnophilia has replied

Brad
Member (Idle past 4817 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 34 of 117 (126172)
07-21-2004 4:49 AM


A CULT!
Okay, we seem to be having trouble defining a cult. I found an article by William Edelen, he used to be a presbaterian minister, he wrote a handy guide to help explain the differance between a cult and a real religion, I hope this helps everyone!
"A CULT: Believes in heavenly signs such as comets and gateways to heaven and other mentally deranged ideas.
A REAL RELIGION: Believes in heavenly signs such as stars in the East at their leaders birth and the "sun standing still" for an entire day. (Joshua 10:12) and other mentally deranged ideas.
A CULT: Believes they have found the truth while all others are deceived.
A REAL RELIGION: Believes they have found the truth while all others are deceived. "Salvation is only through Jesus."
A CULT: The leader says "believe me and you will go to heaven."
A REAL RELIGION: The leader says..."believe me and you will go to heaven...Don't believe me and you will go to someplace called 'hell'".
A CULT: Has leaders mostly men, often wearing fancy robes and promising you salvation and heaven if you will give them your money and property.
A REAL RELIGION: Has leaders, mostly men, often wearing fancy robes and promising you salvation and heaven if you will give them your money and property.
A CULT: Claims their leader is led by God, and God speaks to him and tells him what to do. The leader talks to God.
A REAL RELIGION: Claims their leader is led by God, and God speaks to him and tells him what to do. And the leader talks to God.
A CULT: Makes miraculous claims about the importance of their leader.
A REAL RELIGION: Makes miraculous claims about their leader, that he was born of a virgin...could walk on water..could turn water into wine and feed thousands with only five loaves and two fish.
A CULT: Thinks women are subservient to men and the male leader and should take orders from them, including sexual bondage.
A REAL RELIGION: Thinks women are subservient to men. "Let the women keep silence for it is not permitted for them to speak; they are commanded to be under obedience." (1Cor. 14:34) "Man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man." (1Cor: 11:13) "Let women learn silence in all subjection. I suffer not a woman to have authority over a man." (1 Timothy 2:11)
See how easy it is to tell a cult from a real religion. No problem.
Any individual on this little cosmic speck called Earth who really believes that he/she is speaking for the power behind a million galaxies in a universe beyond comprehension is closing in on insanity.
I was invited to speak a number of years ago to a state convention of Lutheran ministers in Tacoma, WA, I asked them this question: "how many of you actually believe that you are speaking for a God of the universe when you are in the pulpit on a Sunday morning?" About three fourths of them held up their hand. I then said to them..."not a one of you can explain a light bulb to me or a television set and yet you fantasize that you are speaking for the power behind the universe..." They never invited me back to speak again.I think you can see why. "
From William Edelen http://www.williamedelen.com/sept92001.html
I hope this helps to clear things up! Also while reading Mr. Edelen's writing I found this quote, seemed appropriate to the board:
"Tolerance" and "respect" for ignorance and bigotry should have no place in our lives. The disease that is spreading in our society is the feeling that you should accept and respect an individual's belief's, no matter how ignorant or destructive. This is a most dangerous principle in that it threatens free inquiry, even science and truth itself. The danger is that far too many, in apathy, are dozing while this cancer spreads."
Anyway, off to bed!
-Brad

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6902 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 35 of 117 (126301)
07-21-2004 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
07-21-2004 2:05 AM


Re: A cult
Christ, the way and means to God. He is the way and only way to the Father, the entrance to eternal life, the beloved son in whom God is well-pleased, etc etc
Mary was a human being. She died.
lds is a cult....see above, Christ is the way, he's the one, the only one who can save you from sin
no it does not matter how nice people are. Without Christ, nice is just and only nice

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 07-21-2004 2:05 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Loudmouth, posted 07-21-2004 4:06 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 39 by Glordag, posted 07-21-2004 5:19 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-21-2004 5:24 PM PecosGeorge has not replied
 Message 47 by arachnophilia, posted 07-22-2004 1:54 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6902 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 36 of 117 (126302)
07-21-2004 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
07-21-2004 2:11 AM


Re: Christ
um....no, you try again.
Christ is the atonement for sin, the lamb that was slain from the foundations of the world, he and the Father are one, and also with the Holy Spirit.
If you don't believe that, hey, I'm easy. Whateve floats your boat.

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit!"
2 Cor. 7:1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 07-21-2004 2:11 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by arachnophilia, posted 07-22-2004 1:57 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 117 (126305)
07-21-2004 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by PecosGeorge
07-21-2004 3:25 PM


Re: A cult
quote:
Christ, the way and means to God. He is the way and only way to the Father, the entrance to eternal life, the beloved son in whom God is well-pleased, etc etc
Belief in salvation by a supernatural force is the centerpiece of almost every cult. Insert "Halle-Bopp" in the place of "Christ" and you come close to being in the Heaven's Gate crowd. Believing strongly in something is not wrong. Believing that other people are incapable of doing the same in another religion is wrong. Faith and longevity does not magically turn something into a religion instead of a cult.
quote:
Christ is the way, he's the one, the only one who can save you from sin
There are many religions across the world that claim differently. How am I supposed to know who is right, or if any of them are right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-21-2004 3:25 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-21-2004 5:09 PM Loudmouth has replied
 Message 40 by jar, posted 07-21-2004 5:19 PM Loudmouth has not replied
 Message 52 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-22-2004 10:42 AM Loudmouth has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 38 of 117 (126311)
07-21-2004 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Loudmouth
07-21-2004 4:06 PM


Re: A cult
There are many religions across the world that claim differently. How am I supposed to know who is right, or if any of them are right?
By the exact same way you know about science - serious study.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Loudmouth, posted 07-21-2004 4:06 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Loudmouth, posted 07-21-2004 5:48 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Glordag
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 117 (126316)
07-21-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by PecosGeorge
07-21-2004 3:25 PM


Re: A cult
quote:
no it does not matter how nice people are. Without Christ, nice is just and only nice
Damn, and I always thought that selfless guy who gave all his fortune to charity and lived only to help others was a good guy and mattered ): . What a crazy, crazy world we live in!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-21-2004 3:25 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-22-2004 10:46 AM Glordag has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 40 of 117 (126317)
07-21-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Loudmouth
07-21-2004 4:06 PM


Re: A cult
There are many religions across the world that claim differently. How am I supposed to know who is right, or if any of them are right?
Does it matter. If one is right, that does not mean that the others are wrong.
And despite what PG and others have said, the basic tenet of Christianity is not Christ, but GOD.
Jesus said "Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God" He did not say Love Jesus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Loudmouth, posted 07-21-2004 4:06 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-22-2004 10:48 AM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 117 (126320)
07-21-2004 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by PecosGeorge
07-21-2004 3:25 PM


Re: A cult
Christ, the way and means to God. He is the way and only way to the Father...
Sorry, but the Jews had a direct way to the Father long before Jesus was born. They still do.
Although you can say that there is no way for a Christian other than through a belief in Christ, that does not mean that a Jew, or Muslim cannot speak directly to the Big Guy. Nor does it mean that you can't ask Mary to put in a word for you.
And that is all that the RCC says. They ask Mary to interceed for them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-21-2004 3:25 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Mike_King, posted 07-21-2004 6:23 PM jar has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 117 (126329)
07-21-2004 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object
07-21-2004 5:09 PM


Re: A cult
quote:
By the exact same way you know about science - serious study.
Would you also include in depth study of all world religions (eg Hinduism, Islam, Shintoism, Mormonism, Catholicism vs Protestantism)? Not that I am claiming christians are part of a false religion, but to truly say that christianity is the only way one would have to study every possible religion. In fact, the plethora of religions seems to point to a multiplicity of correct answers for who God/s is and his/her/their relationship with man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 07-21-2004 5:09 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-22-2004 10:51 AM Loudmouth has replied

Mike_King
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 117 (126339)
07-21-2004 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
07-21-2004 2:11 AM


Re: Christ
quote:
fundamentalist christians like to worship christ, who was made in the image of god. that's called idolatry, and is specifically against god's commandments.
Whoa! Thats not quite right. That would be true is you are a Jehovah's witness, but as a Christian, worship of Christ is possible as he is part of the Godhead and in Revelations, ..Every knee will bow.. and Thomas worshiped Jesus after the resurrection and declared ..'my Lord and my God!'
You are right, there is only one God, but Jesus did declare himself to be God when he said in the gospel of John, '...before Abraham was, I AM..' (The I AM is refereing to God's name and why the Jews wanted to stone him to death, because they thought he was blaspheming)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 07-21-2004 2:11 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by arachnophilia, posted 07-22-2004 2:39 AM Mike_King has replied

Mike_King
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 117 (126340)
07-21-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-21-2004 5:24 PM


Re: A cult
quote:
Sorry, but the Jews had a direct way to the Father long before Jesus was born. They still do.
Hi Jar,
Not so! In Hebrew times, access to God was only granted to the high priest at the Temple. The ordinary people could not have direct access to God in the inner temple where God dwelt.
What Jesus did was to create a way for ordinary people to have direct access, and millions of Christians to this day enjoy that relationship with the Father.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-21-2004 5:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 07-21-2004 6:30 PM Mike_King has not replied
 Message 46 by RingoKid, posted 07-21-2004 8:34 PM Mike_King has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 117 (126342)
07-21-2004 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Mike_King
07-21-2004 6:23 PM


Re: A cult
It would appeear that there were quite a few prayers among the Hebrews, even from the earliest period. I seem to remember a few sacrifices and even quite a few direct one on one encounters.
But I'll check with some more of my brethern (afterall, I'm only an honorary member of the tribe) and get back to you.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Mike_King, posted 07-21-2004 6:23 PM Mike_King has not replied

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