The Problem of Evil

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The problem of Evil

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Here is a very simple way to address this question.What is Cold? The absence of heat.
What is dark? The absence of light.
What is evil? The absence of God.So basically evil wasn’t created by God, it is simply a state where God's grace is not present.

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"Satan/Lucifer/Whatever" is destined to be eternally punished in the end, wouldn't that make God a... ummm... cruel (sorry for the word)

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Let me ask you this. How just would a judge be if he let murderers/rapists/thieves go free with out punishment? Would God be just if he did not punish sinners?

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what about the people somewhere, out there who was born and died without ever knowing what a bible or who Jesus is? Are they really off to the "hell" the bible proposes?

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If they go to hell it will not be because they were not Christians. It will be because they were sinners. We all deserve hell. It is only God’s grace that saves.This message has been edited by Jasonb, 08-10-2004 12:53 PM

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Jason B

There is a translation issue with verse here. The ESV translates it,"Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things." A calamity could be called a natural evil (hurricanes, floods, disease) as apposed to a moral evil (murder, lying, adultery, stealing).My point was that God did not create evil. Because evil is not a tangible thing, just like dark and cold. But he certainly allows evil to be. Why? John Piper says, evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world; because the creature's happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of his love. And if the knowledge of him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect." Does the fact that God tolerates evil make him less Glorious? Again I defer to John Piper:"no, just the opposite. God is more glorious for having conceived and created and governed a world like this with all its evil. The effort to absolve him by denying his foreknowledge of sin or by denying his control of sin is fatal, and a great dishonor to his word and his wisdom." This message has been edited by Jasonb, 08-10-2004 01:24 PM

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Jason B

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That version is only used in one particular bible - the rest all use evil (well expect for a couple that use PREPARE - even worse or SEND - worse again!)

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According to Carm.org

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The Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV; .... the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

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"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

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So God is the author of natural calamities, but is he the author of moral evil, or sin?The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He," (Deut. 32:4).

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"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor," (Hab. 1:13). Clearly not.

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Moral evil (sin) is choosing the opposite of what God wants. The Bible says "‘Woe to the rebellious children,’ declares Yehovah, ‘who execute a plan, but not Mine, and make an alliance, but not of My Spirit, in order to add sin to sin’" (Isaiah 30:1), so moral evil (sin) is anything we do that is contrary to God’s will. If it is contrary to what God wants, then what God wants is the opposite which cannot be evil.

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Jason B

Tel Rinsiel, are you who you say you are? It’s just that your lack of English and understanding of it seems to come and go and you seem to have the answers to all your own questions. Could you actually be Charles Knight in disguise? -Pause While Everyone Gasps- If not I apologize, but then again I wouldn’t put anything past some of the people on this board.But anyway the topic of why hell was discussed here http://EvC Forum: Justify damnation, dammit!

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Jason B

Moral evil (sin) was not created by God. Sin is doing the opposite of what God desires. So evil is in opposition to God’s creation.Jonathan Edwards had this to say on the topic:

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If by 'the author of sin,' be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing . . . . it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin." But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency."

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God is, Edwards says, "the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."

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He uses the analogy of the way the sun brings about light and warmth by its essential nature, but brings about dark and cold by dropping below the horizon.

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"If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness," he says, "it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun." In other words, "sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence."

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Thus in one sense God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves. Edwards says,

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God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.

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Jason B

Just curious. What do you mean by this statement?

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Jason B

Dude, I did apologize, in the original post, but just to be a man about it I will apologize again. I am sorry and I meant no harm.But I am still not convinced that Tel Rinsiel is who she/he claims to be. There is something fishy going on.

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Jason B

LOL. It could be. You never know where he will pop up. I better keep my guard up.

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Jason B

What? I think you are over complicating a very simple analogy. Let’s see what Webster has to say:Dark: devoid or partially devoid of light
Cold : bodily sensation produced by loss or lack of heatAnd just for fun:Evil: the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoingI think with those definitions Edward’s analogy holds up quite well.

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Jason B

Good point Mike.Just curious, Have we decided on an agreeable definition of Evil? Certainly there are calamities which could be called natural evils, but I think what is being called evil here is moral evils, which could be called sin. Curious to hear your definition if you don’t mind.

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Jason B

Sure but can we first agree upon a definition of evil in the context in which it is being debated here. Will this definition of evil work for you: A moral wrong or a sin ie: murder, rape,theft etc.Let me know.

Thanks for responding. I don’t know if I agree with this. Can you give me an example?I guess I don’t see how you can separate the person from the act. Can a person be evil without doing evil? Or is he only evil because of his acts?One of your previous posts First you would have to establish that there is evil separate from human acts, which I am not sure of.Ill wait for your response.

Thanks for your reply. I too am thinking this through. An example of someone I think we can all agree was evil is Adolph Hitler.We know he was evil because of his evil acts. But his evil acts are not what made him evil, they were simply the manifestation of an evil heart and mind. I suppose some could say if he didn’t know his acts were evil, then he was not committing evil, but that would get into the realm of moral relativism. I think most people can agree Hitler was evil.So why was he evil? The scientist has a few options here. He was born evil because of some evil gene that he inherited, or he had a mental disorder that turned off his social and moral filters rendering him unable to tell right from wrong, or maybe it was purely environmental and he was just socially conditioned to do evil.The theologian would have some bible versus to turn to.Psalm 14:2-3
The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

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Job 15:14
What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

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Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

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Genesis 8:21
And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.So all men, both Hitler and the Pope, are born sinful. And if you define evil in terms of sin ie: sin=evil=sin, then evil exists in the heart of man, totally separated form his wicked acts, and all men are evil.But this doesn’t answer the question did God create evil?He certainly permits it. He allowed Hitler to be born, come to power, and do terrible things. In the Old Testament it says God harden pharaohs heart. Again in the Old Testament Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery. Later when he saw them in Egypt he said to them, that what you meant to me for evil, God meant to me for good.But did he create evil? I say no. God created man with free will, man rebelled and the result was sin entered into the world, but evil was not created by God.Now this does rely on the definition of sin=evil=sin. Which I imagine many will disagree with. Can someone come up with an example of a sin that is not evil, or an evil that is not a sin.--edited for terrible spelling--This message has been edited by Jasonb, 08-12-2004 12:54 PM

Thanks for your reply. Yes, that is the 20,000 dollar (or pound) question. But first lets stay on the debate of did God create evil.

First define for me what you thik evil is. Was Hitler evil? Is Satan evil?This message has been edited by Jasonb, 08-12-2004 01:06 PM