The Problem of Evil

I'm sorry... This isn't really a topic in a "sense"... just a question. My english isn't very good. While I was reading somethings, I came upon this. I'm having a problem comprehending it entirely so I'm thinking maybe someone here can translate the meaning of the paragraphs in a different, less complicated manner.

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The Problem of Evil

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The figure of Satan as progenitor of sin poses logical and ethical contradictions within a monotheistic religious system that denies the ambivalence of the creator god.

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As far as the Christian Dogma is concerned, the implicit dualism of the existence of Satan has never been truly reconciled with the Canon. The Lord was infinitely good; evil had its source outside of him. Yet he was the author of all things, and ultimately responsible for his creation. How could he allow evil to exist?

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The orthodox tactic regarding the problem of evil was the privatio boni. Plato argued that evil was merely the privation of good, that it had no ontological status of its own. While he of course acknowledged the existence of moral evils in the form of wars, lies, he conveniently explained them away as a mere lack of peace or lack of truth.

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Christian theologians such as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas were quick to accept Plato's position regarding evil, and lay spurious claim to his beliefs as if they were inherent in Christian theology. They did not recognize the incompatibility of the privatio boni with the concepts of active evil, and, again, the omnipotence of God. For if evil has no being, how can it have a principle such as that incarnated in the Devil? Worse still, the dismissal of evil as an "accidental lack of perfection" flaw in the face of both reason and intuition as there is no room for such failure from an omniscient God."
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I hope people would answer. Tee hee.I was also wondering... if, in the Revelation verses, "Satan/Lucifer/Whatever" is destined to be eternally punished in the end, wouldn't that make God a... ummm... cruel (sorry for the word)? It's just, if he knew everything that would occur and every event is his design and plan, why would he have created the poor angel in the first place who will eventuall fall from grace, instigate "evil", drag poor human "souls" along with him then suffer for all eternity in the end.I feel that such a "great design" from an all powerful "higher being" is so final with a pinch of cruelty.I was also wondering if all the people in the world has had knowledge of what Christianity is. Ummm... it's just, if it is really true that Christianity, itself, is the only true religion that could save souls, what about the people somewhere, out there who was born and died without ever knowing what a bible or who Jesus is? Are they really off to the "hell" the bible proposes?Thanks in advance and I'm sorry if I upset anyone.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-11-2004 03:44 PM

I'm still confused. So, was "Evil" created by the God of the bible or is it -quote- "merely the privation of good that has no ontological status of its own" -quote-.Sorry if I'm being overly inquisitive again... umm... I just want to ask if the bible God created hell or... did Satan? Also, err, does the bible God create new souls for every new born baby? I know they're silly inquiries from my silly minds... but maybe it's possible to answer them.

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If they go to hell it will not be because they were not Christians. It will be because they were sinners. We all deserve hell. It is only God’s grace that saves.

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Umm... I don't understand why we all deserve hell. It's so sad... everything is so negative.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-10-2004 03:52 PM

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Let me ask you this. How just would a judge be if he let murderers/rapists/thieves go free with out punishment? Would God be just if he did not punish sinners?

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I was kind of meaning, maybe, since the bible God knows everything that would or could happen, couldn't He have like... predicted that Lucifer would launch a rebellion against him in the first place. It's a thought that has been boggling me. So, what you're saying is... God knew that Lucifer would rebel against him, be Satan, tempt souls to disobey God and in the end, since punishing sinners is the proper thing to do, send all His misguided and unobedient creations to eternal damnation in Hell (I'm not certain... is it really eternal time in hell after Revelations? Sorry, I haven't really read much of the bible). So all of these are part of the "great design"?.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-10-2004 03:49 PM

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Tel Rinsiel, are you who you say you are? It’s just that your lack of English and understanding of it seems to come and go and you seem to have the answers to all your own questions. Could you actually be Charles Knight in disguise? -Pause While Everyone Gasps- If not I apologize, but then again I wouldn’t put anything past some of the people on this board.

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Oh, I'm not Charles. Well, here in the Philippines, we do not casually use english on the streets to communicate with people. We all could only learn the language in schools so I'm not sure if my grammar is as up-to-date as the common usage of english nowadays. I kind of thought I should forewarn people in case I make jibberish kinds of sentences again. I usually make unintelligible statements so I instinctively admit it's my fault whenever people misunderstand me.I'm still confused... how come there's this passage? I'll quote it from Charles.

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Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Are there different types of bibles or versions of bibles? I've never been aware of that. Ummm, if there are different types, which one is the most consice?By the way, thanks for the link to the "hell" topic.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-10-2004 06:33 PM

Thanks Sleeping Dragon.

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To Tel Rinsiel:
Welcome to this forum! Hope you enjoy your stay.

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The questions you have posed do not reflect one who is as ignorant as you claimed yourself to be. But of course, humility and modesty are never crimes.

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You have stated the contradiction of omniscience vs. evil (why did God create Lucifer if He knew that he would rebel?).

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You have stated the contradiction of omnibenevolence vs. ignorance (how can God punish those who do not have the chance/knowledge to know or believe in Him?)

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You have also stated the contradiction of omnibenevolence vs. evil (how can a God who is pure good create evil, assuming that the said God is responsible for the existence of all things?).

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Yes, please... I really would like to hear those questions answered by -and I quote- "fundamentalists". Those were exactly the questions that have been making me dizzy since I've read that article about a long time issue "The Problem of Evil". Thanks to Sleeping Dragon for simplifying and properly arranging the questions from the complicated paragraphs.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-11-2004 12:36 PM

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But I am still not convinced that Tel Rinsiel is who she/he claims to be. There is something fishy going on.

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Oh, Im a she, 23 years old. Don't worry, I'm not fond of lying. I'm just tired of feeling choked here in our country for believing in different things outside of Christianity like evolution or parts of Wiccan tradition. Most of the people in my part of my country are Christians. I just feel terrible whenever they call me "evil" or devilishly inclined for having different views in things. They say that though I'm not even sure what "evil" is or if it's something that I should believe in and follow outside of the law of the government. It's so unfair to the rest of the people. I mean, not everyone are Christian and do not follow the bible's concept of wrong and evil.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-11-2004 12:28 PM

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Hhhmmmmmm. "They". Shall I also be a bit skeptical like Jason? I mean - I personally think that you're just saying "they" call you evil to back up your position, but then, please convince me otherwise.

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Ummm, you lost me there. I don't really get what you're trying to say. I know enough and feel bad enough whenever "they" (as in people here, in my country, around me) call me evil in believing things that I believe in outside of the theology of their religion. I know they mean I'm someone bad or someone who's doing wrong to other people even though I don't really feel I'm doing anything wrong or bad. At least, that's what I think they mean.I like hanging out with people who are objective and accept different views as possibilities of a probable fact -given the proper evidence has been presented to prove it's fact-. I usually find those qualities in scientific minded people. I always tend to feel uncomfortable whenever I talk to my theologist professors. This is just my opinion according to my own feelings so don't be angry at me.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-11-2004 01:21 PM

I apologize if I caused people to argue because of my questions but in fairness to all, I really am now understanding the last article I posted a lot clearer... so thanks.
I kind of thought maybe I should post the other parts connected to the article that I first posted that I haven't totally understood yet. I need help getting a grip on these paragraphs again

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Summary of the role played by Satan in the Scriptures
Satan is an angel (Job 1-2). God made him before the world began (Job 38:4-7). Satan was very powerful (Revelation 12:3: "ten horns") and very wise (Revelation 12:3: "seven heads"). But he became the first sinner (1 John 3:8). Apparently at one point in the past (or possibly future) he led a rebellion in heaven against God (Revelation 12:7). In Satan’s fall, he drew a vast number of angels with him (Revelation 12:4, 9). Some of the fallen angels are loose and some are bound in a place called the Abyss (Luke 8:31). The loose ones we call "demons". Of the bound ones, there are two kinds, permanently bound (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6) and temporarily bound (Revelation 9:1-11). Satan and his demons now wage war against God’s kingdom (Revelation 12:17). Some people think that Satan lives in hell, but hell is where Satan and the wicked will be sent at the last judgment. Satan now dwells on earth (Job 1:7). At the Second Coming of Christ, he will be bound for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). After the thousand years, he will be set free for a short time and will go out to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:7-9). The devil’s final end will be in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10), which was prepared by God for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

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Satan’s Fall
But what exactly was the character or nature of Satan’s iniquity? As suggested by 1 Timothy 3:6-7 and Ezekiel 28:17, though created perfect by God (Ezek. 28:13-15), it was conceit or pride that welled up in his heart because of his beauty and high position that led to arrogant aspirations and to his sin and fall. In Isaiah 14:12-15 and in Ezekiel 28:12-19, we have a remarkable account of the original place which Satan once had as "Lucifer, son of the morning." His fall from this original, exalted place, of perhaps the greatest of created angelic beings, is given in these Scriptures. These arrogant aspirations are described for us in Isaiah 14:12-17 : pride, selfwill, iniquity, rebellion, and violence are the reasons. Because of his pride and aspirations to be like God, he became God’s chief adversary (Heb. Satan). After this, he is never again called by any of these prestigious titles. Instead, he is called by terms that reflect his fallen character and hostility to God and men, like liar, murderer, Satan (adversary), the evil one, Abaddon (destruction), Apollyon (destroyer), Belial (worthless), serpent, and dragon.

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Scotus, however points out that this sin was not pride properly so called, but should rather be described as a species of spiritual lust.

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Although nothing definite can be known as to the precise nature of the probation of the angels and the manner in which many of them fell, many theologians have conjectured, with some show of probability, that the mystery of the Divine Incarnation was revealed to them, that they saw that a nature lower than their own was to be hypostatically united to the Person of God the Son, and that all the hierarchy of heaven must bow in adoration before the majesty of the Incarnate Word; and this, it is supposed, was the occasion of the pride of Lucifer.

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Furthermore, we learn from Ezekiel 28 that Lucifer engaged in a multitude of traffic, which means "going about." He filled heaven with violence and sinned.
"Thou has defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic"

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Thus Lucifer instigated violence and rebellion among the heavenly hosts before man was created, and those who followed him became his angels or demons. Seeking to overthrow God and rule heaven, Lucifer assembled an army of apostate angels and initiated a war in heaven.

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In the book of Revelation we read about a war in heaven between Michael and the angels who remained loyal to God and the dragon, "called the Devil, and Satan," and his angels. Then Satan and his angels were defeated by Michael, and were thrown down from heaven to hell.

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And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:7-9

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It made me confused again. Did Lucifer create "evil" when he started thinking of rebelling against "God" or was evil already present (already created by "God") before Lucifer stared to follow that vile path? Sorry, my mind is still jumbled on where "evil" came from.

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The Apocalypse
In the future, at the end of the Tribulation, an angel will descend from heaven with the key of the abyss and with a great chain in his hand (Rev. 20:1). The fact he has the key and the chain shows he has been given authority and power from heaven to carry out this assignment. This angel will then lay hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan and will bind him for a thousand years. The emphasis here is that this angel, operating under God’s authority and with His power, will possess the strength necessary to seize, hold firmly, and restrain the devil and bind him in the abyss for a thousand years with no possibility of escape.

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Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit [abussou] and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit [abusson], and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. Revelation 20:1

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So it will happen in that day, that the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high, and the kings of the earth on earth. They will be gathered together like prisoners in the dungeon, and will be confined in prison; and after many days they will be punished.Isaiah 24:21

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Revelation 19 describes the battle between the forces of the Antichrist and Yeshua at the end of this age. After the defeat and destruction of "the beast" and "the false prophet," the Bible reveals that Satan himself will be captured and imprisoned for a thousand years.

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And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Revelation 20:7

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During the millennial kingdom Satan will be bound, but at the close of that period he will be released and will attempt to lead the world in a final revolt against Christ’s kingdom. Finally God will cast Satan into the lake of fire and brimstone where he will be tormented for ever and ever Revelation.

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I have another silly question regarding this. Ummm, does "God" already know about all of these and that these will all happen to the denizens of the world he created along with the Devils even before he created Lucifer and the universe or were all of these only predicted after Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan and all became chaotic?Also, will Satan become free from imprisonment by himself or will someone set him free. I think it would be nicer if "God" would prevent him from breaking loose.I was just thinking maybe He should have skipped... err... creating Lucifer... hee hee... just to have prevented all the endless suffering of His beloved creations that became sinners for eternity.
Sigh, I don't know about anyone... but to me... it just seems so cruel to not prevent something that you already know would bring tragedy. Or maybe... ummm... He could have deleted evil in case Lucifer created it before He created us. I know my thoughts are silly so don't mind me.Oh... just my opinion, so don't be mad. Peace.

Ooohhh, yes... I see. That makes sense. So, no matter how much the bible says God loves His creation, he wouldn't be able to alter what he foresaw no matter how horrible the event that will occur. I guess that would contradict to the idea of Him being omnipotent. Or maybe... he could alter the future events but just refuses to? I don't know, maybe it's a possibility.I'm getting dizzy again. Tee hee... I shouldn't think too much.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-13-2004 03:39 PM

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An anology would be like God setting up a Rube Goldberg device, taking an indefinite amount of time to make sure that all the pieces go exactly where He wanted to go, and behave exactly how he wanted them to behave (omniscience really helps here) before triggering the domino.

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In short, this would mean that everything that ever and will happen to the world is directly attributable to God, including all the good and the bad - thus violating the omnibenevolence assumption.

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Would the paragraph I quoted from you imply that all the suffering in the world that happened and will happen in the future are part of God's plan so He wouldn't "choose" to alter those?So God plans everything and everything that will happen is already known by Him since He's omniscient... so, in the Revelations, the eternal suffering of all the supposed sinners after the apocalypse is still a part of His "Divine Plan"? Sigh, that seems so harsh and do not sound divine at all.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-14-2004 06:14 AM

I'm not really the "debating" type. I just have so many questions that I like having answered. I usually don't have the capacity to verbally defend what I believe in so I just ask questions, instead.Is it in Buddhist culture or in Hinduism where a person bows his head to greet another while saying "I bless the divinity in you"? I really like their way of greeting... it's so positive... it kind of says that every person is naturally divine/high upon birth instead of -born-sinful-unless-baptism-is-received like in Christianity. And that, you greet his soul instead of the body.My avatar isn't from an anime (the Japanese made cartoons?). I found it from a website that gives additional portraits for characters in their game "Neverwinter Nights". It's a sort of PC role-playing game, fully three dimensional where you play a character and follows a storyline. The setting is like in the Lord of the Rings... medieval.This message has been edited by Tel Rinsiel, 08-14-2004 06:19 AM

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Anime refers to japanese animated cartoons. I like your avatar. I'm wondering if you have a link to that page? I'd like to learn more about the artist.

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Do you play Neverwinter Nights? Tel Rinsiel is perhaps your characters name?

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I can't recall the address of the site but I'll try to look it up.The name Tel Rinsiel... oh, it's the name of a character (a Light Elf) from a longer than short story that I'm currently trying to write despite my lethargy.

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You do look, my son, in a moved sort,
As if you were dismay'd: be cheerful, sir.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Ye all which it inherit, shall dissolve
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep.
Shakespeare, The Tempest, Act IV

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I hope that you might find as I do profound insights in the words of Shakespeare. I wonder what question you will ask of this view?

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I wouldn't have a question if that's the true case since the issue of the "Problem of Evil" will not be relevant anymore. If evil is thought up by a God as part of the whole plot of the play which is about our lives and universe, then there'd be no point in asking if evil was created by Him or not.Wait, is that the belief sytem of Hinduism? Don't they have many gods?

Hmmm... yes, I missed that one -the concept of freewill-. So, could we say that the moment a baby is born, God already knows whether his/her soul is bound to go to heaven or hell no matter what decisions in life he/she takes?Wait, does God create new souls for each baby that is about to be born?