If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?

>How exactly does a prophecy that is understood 40 years after the fact
>help?Page not found shows the calculation follows exactly what the text says. It was there for thousands of years, but nobody checked it until 1988, even after it happened in 1948.>And for the Daniel prophecy to work, you have to fudge things by
>changing weeks to years. Then you need to change years from the
>Hebrew Lunar calendar to a 360 day calendar.Everybody remembers that Jacob worked 7 years for each of his wives Rachel and Leah. In the following verse we see that "week" is the translation to English of "7 year period".Complete her week, and we will give you this also for the service which you shall serve with me yet seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week; and he gave him Rachel his daughter for his wife also.
Genesis 29:27:28 Soncino TanakhIf you need to see an extensive discourse on the above point, please visit http://www.christian-thinktank.com/q70weeks.html.ROTB

>Then you need to change years from the Hebrew Lunar calendar to a 360
>day calendar.For a discourse on why the Bible uses 360 day years and not 365.24 day years, please visit Page not found.ROTB

>To be a valid prophesy, it must be capable of specificity and being
>understood before the fact.Repeating what I posted before:
Lets briefly review the contents of Page not found :

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1) Before the return from Babylonian captivity, Daniel was told by God that 483 years after the building of Jerusalem and it's walls an "annointed" or "Mashiach" would show up. It happened to the very day in 32 AD.

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2) In 606 BC, the nation of Israel was conquered, and after 70 years of captivity (Jeremiah 25), they still had 360 years of sin debt left (Ezekiel 4). Since they were dis-obedient to God, God punished them seven times more (Leviticus 26), which means upon their return from Babylon, they were still ruled over by outsiders, and then kicked out.

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606BC + 70 years (Jeremiah 25) + (360 years left x 7) = 1948 AD

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God promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD) exactly when he said He would.
>To be a valid prophesy, it must be capable of specificity and being
>understood before the fact.So which one of the aforementioned two is:
1) Not specific
2) Not understandableAs I see it:
1) Jesus showed up right on schedule in 32 AD, and it was foretold by God through Daniel circa 536 BC.
2) God allowed Israel to form in 1948 AD, exactly when the punishment had ended according to Ezekiel 4, Leviticus 26, and Jeremiah 25.>That is prophecy. It will come true, or be proved false.Which one was proved false?ROTB

>And you have the documented interpretation of this prophecy that was
>published before 1948 that said that Israel would be reformed about
>1,948 years after the time of Christ?The prophecy was published thousands of years ago, but the interpretation was discovered in 1988.Please read Page not found for more specifics about 1948 being pointed to by God through Moses, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah in the Old Testament as the time Israel's punishment would end.Please read Page not found for more specifics about 32 AD being the time predicted that the Messiah would come by God through Daniel back in the 500s BC.Even Issac Newton did not consider the Bible a tool for telling the future with certainty, given the limits of our intellect compared with God's. He applied it towards understanding the world scientifically, and he applied it as a tool with which to calibrate timelines of recorded history. For instance, Newton concluded that many ancient cultures had greatly exaggerated their antiquity for the sake of national vanity.>It has to be clear and understood before the occurrence.I'm not saying Isaac Newton is the final and last and highest Bible interpreter of all time, but you are demanding a standard of proof that even Isaac Newton dared not demand of God. It was enough for Isaac Newton for the Bible to say what would happen, and for flawed mortal men to look after the fact, and then see that God had said it all along, and marvel and praise God.God doesn't want us playing prognosticator. He wants us to learn about Him, learn from Him, learn from His Word, and be conformed to the likeness of His Son Jesus. I suspect this is why it is so difficult to interpret the Bible before the fact.As I quote my previous brief summary of the explanation at Page not found for the prophecies that point to 1948 AD as the time the Jewish people would again rule itself in Israel, notice how clear and precise it is.2) In 606 BC, the nation of Israel was conquered, and after 70 years of captivity (Jeremiah 25), they still had 360 years of sin debt left (Ezekiel 4). Since they were dis-obedient to God, God punished them seven times more (Leviticus 26), which means upon their return from Babylon, they were still ruled over by outsiders, and then kicked out.

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606BC + 70 years (Jeremiah 25) + (360 years left x 7) = 1948 AD

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God promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD) exactly when he said He would.
ROTB

> adding together the punishments on Israel and Judah.Correct me if I am wrong, but you are arguing that the punishments should have been carried out in parallel, and not serially.But what God had Ezekiel actually do, was:1) lie first for Israel on his left for 390 days
2) lie second for Judah on his right for 40 daysThe punishment symbolized on Ezekiel ws carried out in serial, just as it works in the interpretation at Page not found, and not in parallel as you suggest it should.>To add to that. since the people of Israel are gone (the "Lost
>Tribes") and the modern Jews come from Judah the calculation should
>use the figure for Judah alone of 40 years instead of 430 years.I don't know for certain which tribes are "lost," but it's 10 of the 12, right? Leaving the two required, unless someone can dig up more solid facts on this. "Israel" is not a tribe. The kingdom of Israel was split during the reign of Solomon's son, into "Israel" in the north, which had 11 tribes, and "Judah" of the south which had one.ROTB

First of all, thank you for your patience in trying to communicate with me, at such a late hour, on such a vague medium. It is a credit to your patience.>I am saying that there are two different punishments on two sets of
>people. Adding them together - especially when the result is applied
>to only ONE of the two groups makes no sense at all.The result was applied to both kingdoms in 606 BC. Both Israel and Judah were conquered then, and a Jewish king left in charge of the city of Jerusalem until 587 BC when he revolted, and was crushed.>The punishment on
>Israel does not apply to the people of Judah, nor does the punishment
>on Judah apply to the people of Israel.The northern kingdom of Israel had 11 tribes, and 390 years of sin.
The southern kingdom of Judah had 1 tribe, and 40 years of sin.I think we would agree that it would be a stretch of the imagination for 10 of the tribes in the northern kingdom of Israel to have been innocent, and for one tribe to have been super-sinful, and yet for God to punish the whole northern kingdom with 390 years.That considered, we can agree that the northern kingdom was probaly evenly sinful across the 11 tribes.390 years / 11 tribes =~ 35.45455 years of sin debt per tribe
40 years / 1 tribe = 40 yearsSo along with punishing all 12 tribes in 606 BC, given that God is ...1) consistent
2) fair... God tallied the sin of the 11 tribes of the northern kingdom to 390 years by adding the sins of each tribe together, the same way he added 390+40 years to get the initial 430 years used to point to 1948 AD as the year the Jewish people would again rule themselves in the land of Israel as explained in Page not found.The Bible must be allowed to interpret itself, for the Word of God to be consistent and inerrant across 66 books written throughout 1000 years. Imperfect, sinful people are not inerrant.So the prophecy works, because God punished the 12 tribes collectively in 606 BC, and using the Bible to interpret itself, we reasonably expect that he did the same thing within the 11 tribes by collectively adding their sin.Thank you again for your patience, see you all tomorrow night.ROTB

>They missed it! If they had managed to get it right only a few decades
>before (well, perhaps 60 or 70 years) it would be a bit credible.
>However, 40 years after the fact is not prophecy. LOLAgain, you are applying a standard even someone as learned and intelligent as Isaac Newton would not have dared to have applied. Even Isaac Newton considered prophecy only for verifying the trustworthiness of the Word of God, and not for prognosticating.ROTBThis message has been edited by ROTB, 08-23-2004 04:26 AMThis message has been edited by ROTB, 08-23-2004 04:27 AM

>Often folk don't understand me, I'm old and slow and sometimes have
>trouble explaining things.Welcome to the club!!!Thank you for your patience with me also. It's difficult communicating with message board.>If a prophecy is only understood after the fact, it is useless.I'm not saying Isaac Newton is the final and last and highest Bible interpreter of all time, but you are demanding a standard of proof that even Isaac Newton dared not demand of God. Newton's intelligence was considerable, his knowledge of the Bible formidable, and his knowledge of history extensive.And, it was enough for Isaac Newton for the Bible to say what would happen well before it would happen, and for flawed mortal men such as himself to look, study, and notice after the fact, and then see that God had said it all along, and marvel and praise God.There are many examples when you read the Old Testament where God shows he knows what would happen days before it happened. He told people when they would die if they did not repent, and He had Isaiah name Cyrus as the king that would rebuild His Temple decades before Cyrus was born.Jesus Christ said in Matthew 23 that the generation of men that stood before him would pay for all the righteous blood shed from Abel to Zechariah, and in Matthew 24 Jesus Christ said that the Temple would be destroyed with every stone overturned, and both happened in 70 AD, when around a million? Jews died when Titus' Roman legions sacked Jerusalem, and the soldiers of Rome overturned every last stone looking for the gold that had melted off the Temple.>So how about showing us a specific Biblical prophecy that will come
>true in the second half of 2004 or during 2005.Anyone who thinks prophecy is made up by zealous Christians out to rule over people who don't know the Bible, should try making up prophecies from the Bible that came true in the historical verifiable past. The accuracy and specificity and verifiability demonstrated in Page not found must be duplicated, where the God of the Bible demonstrates to us that only He knows what happens thousands of years before it happens.At Page not found we learn that:1) The prophecies of Moses, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all written well before 250 BC point to 1948 AD as the year the Jewish people would be gathered from the world to rule themselves in Israel.
2) The prophecies of Daniel and Moses and Haggai all point to the Messiah arriving at the 2nd Temple, in the time we call the 1st century.ROTB

>as I said in another post, a prophecy has to have certain
>characteristics. First, it must be understandable.I think you meant to say "understandable before the fact and but not only after the fact." Right?>Second, there has to be a reasonable time line. Newton saying that
>Israel will become a nation again simply is less of a prophecy then
>my saying that in the next two decades man will go to Mars.
>Third, it has to be unexpected.
>Fourth, it has to be understood before the fact.Checking the dictionary at Prophecy Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com it does not say anything about prophecy having a particular time line, or being unexpected, or when it is understood.>Vague statements that can be satisfied in several ways simply don't
>count.How many ways does Page not found point to 1948 AD? I only count one.Please demonstrate what you are speaking of. Using the verses used by the author of the preceding link, make them point persuasively to another verifiable historical event, or make them plausibly point to the same historical event in a different way.ROTB

>How can they be the Word of God if they're translations?Since the New Testament agrees with the LXX version 97% of the time, as opposed to siding withthe Masoretic text 68% of the time
http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/...rst_Response_Handbook.pdfIf the translation of the Hebrew in 250BC to the Septuagint was good enough for Jesus and his apostles, it is good enough for me. Translations are fine so long as they are done well. The King James Bible, though the Old Testament is not from the Septuagint, borrows from the Septuagint at key points, and the translation of the New Testament Greek is very very good.I apologize for taking so long to reply.ROTB

>That's pretty bizarre - a string of unsupported assertions that
>"proves" something.>I still say it was Shiva raising up England to smite folks. Or
>maybe it was the Invisible Pink Unicorn, though She's not real big
>into Smiting.I apologize for going off on a tangent. The Septuagint was quoted by Jesus and the apostles 97% of the time when the Old Testament was quoted throughout the New Testament. So though the Septuagint is a translation, it met His standards for accuracy.http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/...rst_Response_Handbook.pdf is the source I used for the 97% figure. He is a Rabbi that is now a follower of Jesus.ROTB

>But since 97 + 68 is rather more than 100% it certainly DOESN'T follow
>that the Septuagint was used 97% of the time.Quotes from the New Testament agree with the Septuagint 97% of the time, but with the Hebrew text 68% of the time.The reason you don't add 97% and 68% together, is that the Hebrew and the Greek translated from the Hebrew agree with each other also. Put another way, sometimes the New Testament agrees with both at the same time.ROTBThis message has been edited by ROTB, 08-24-2004 03:52 AM

I will attempt to summarize Page not found as best I can. Thank you for your patience!I said:
>>God promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not
>>repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD)
>>exactly when he said He would.
You replied:
>How does it make sense for this prophecy to be based on a calendar
>rooted in the false assumption that Jesus was born in 1 AD?I suspect you misunderstood. The prophecies that point to 1948 AD in Page not found have nothing to do with the time Jesus would arrive. The arrival time of Jesus is explained in Page not found.According to the Bible, years are 360 days, and not 365.24 days. Please see Page not found and Page not found which are part 1 and 2 of the same discourse respectively.A biblical year is a time span of 360 days, not 365.24 days.606BC
+ 70 biblical years (Jeremiah 25)
+ (((390+40) Ezekiel 4)- 70 Jeremiah 25) x (7 Leviticus 26) biblical years
+ no year zero1948ADOr if we follow the algebra more closely line by line:
606BC
+ 70 + ((390+40)-70)x7 + no year zero
+ 70 + (430)-70)x7 + no year zero
+ 70 + (360)x7 + no year zero
+ 70 + 2520 + no year zero
+ 2590 biblical years + no year zero
1948AD2590 biblical years x (360 days per biblical year/365.2422199074 days per calendar year) = 2552.82645099 calendar years606BC
+2552.82645099 calendar years
+ no year zero (this adds 1)
1948ADOn your calculator:0
-605.38 (negative since we need to represent BC on the calculator, and July 17 of that year, and keeping tabs of the fact that when counting BC, going forward in time requires making the number designating the year smaller)
+1 (since there is no year zero, we need to skip it)
+2552.82645099 (biblical years adjusted to calendar years)
=1948.44Which corresponds roughly to May 14, 1948. Page not found claims the calculation to be "off" by only 17 days, or 0.00182%.It's late. See you all tomorrow night.ROTB

>I've tried to avoid simply "ganging up" on you here, but the point
>others have been making is important. That is, "after the fact"
>prophecy identification simply allows too much leeway for
>manipulation of the data.Thank you, I appreciate your concern, but getting picked on comes with the territory. Jesus said so, and I do better when I remember this.And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land [that is] not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years
Genesis 15:13Not that this has direct bearing on your main point, but how did he get 430 years and not 400?It is late. I will continue researching this question tommorrow after work.ROTB

>>Please demonstrate what you are speaking of. Using the verses used
>>by the author of the preceding link, make them point persuasively to
>>another verifiable historical event, or make them plausibly point to
>>the same historical event in a different way.>Sorry, but I have already shown that the examples given in your links
>are not prophecy.
>First, they were only understood after the fact.The dictionary definition of prophecy says nothing about when a prophecy is understood. Prophecy Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com(For those of you just joining us, the discussion of prophecy started with the prophecies at Page not found though it drifted to Jesus' prophecy of the 2nd Temple being destroyed in the sight of the generation he stood eye-to-eye with in Matthew 23 and 24).>Second, many were not even written until after the fact, as in the
>case of Matthew.Highlighting this heavenly corroboration of the New Covenant in the New Testament for convincing Jewish skeptics, would be priority one if the prophecy was made up after 70 AD, and then written down.If Jesus predicting the destruction of the 2nd Temple in Matthews 23 and 24 was written after it happened in 70 AD, why is this ...1) outstanding validation of the New Covenant
2) conclusive ending of the Old Covenant... not mentioned even one time in the New Testament?How do you explain Christianity's spread from Jerusalem to Rome by 64 AD without a single written document until after 70 AD, or are you only claiming that the Gospels were written after 70 AD, or are you only claiming Matthew was written after 70 AD?ROTB